2 Peter 3:8-9

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

There is no inconsistency if these two passages are compared.

First, the SAB is a God-hating institution and they will do what they can to try to discredit God and any followers of God. They are NOT a good source of information when trying to understand what is intended by the passage.

Second, these passages are talking about two separate issues. 2 Peter is talking about God's patience and 2 Thess is talking about God's wrath. You must keep these separate. They are not the same. We know that.

Thirdly, God is both of these at the same time. God WANTS all men to be saved. However, He knows many will refuse His salvation and for that, they will suffer His wrath.

Fourthly, God knows who will believe and who won't. So if a person refuses God's Christ, what's it to them to believe in a false christ?

Lastly, the antichrist is supposed to be, according to scripture, a very powerful and charismatic being. THAT is the delusion that is sent by God. Not just any charlatan will do.

In summation, God desires all men to be saved but He is not stupid and He knows many will refuse His salvation. Therefore they receive His wrath instead of His mercy and grace.

Quote: › They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

No doubt a stupid question, but why would God sent them a powerful delusion so they believe the lie, if they already believed the lie? (they refused to love the truth)

And what is left of freedom of will if God starts to send powerful delusions? Than God IS turning humans into robots?

Quote: › There is no inconsistency if these two passages are compared.

Yes. There is.

The reason for sending the delusions is really irrelevant. Why?

Because in the 2 Peter passage, God is described as patient and not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. While in the 2 Thessalonians passage, God does not have the patience for those who at that time deny Him, even going so far as to send them delusions so that they have zero chance of coming to believe thus forcing them into condemnation.

Now, either God is very patient and willing to give every possible chance to reach salvation, or God's patience has limits beyond which He is willing to delude those who do not believe, thus removing any chance for their salvation.

Quote: › First, the SAB is a God-hating institution and they will do what they can to try to discredit God and any followers of God. They are NOT a good source of information when trying to understand what is intended by the passage.

Irrelevant. They are a great source for quickly finding these sort of problems, and they have the full text there so that you can easily read and interpret these issues for yourself.

Quote: › Second, these passages are talking about two separate issues. 2 Peter is talking about God's patience and 2 Thess is talking about God's wrath. You must keep these separate. They are not the same. We know that.

Why? Is God's patience greater or His wrath? There are no clues to let us know as regards this issue.

Besides, the two are linked. Either God has an abundance of patience so that all can potentially be saved or God's patience has a limit beyond which He is willing to actively delude so that some cannot be saved.

Methinks you are constructing a false separation.

Quote: › Thirdly, God is both of these at the same time. God WANTS all men to be saved. However, He knows many will refuse His salvation and for that, they will suffer His wrath.

That is not the problem. The problem is that God actively deludes some so that they have no chance at salvation. That is a plain reading and interpretation of the text.

Take out the problem of actively deluding people so that they have no chance at salvation, and there is no issue.

Quote: › Fourthly, God knows who will believe and who won't. So if a person refuses God's Christ, what's it to them to believe in a false christ?

It is nothing, but again you miss the problem. If God wants that all should have a fair chance at salvation and has an abundance of patience, then there would be no deluding of people. Now, that is not to say that they could not be deluded. Being deluded in and of itself is not the problem. The problem is God actively deluding them, thus proving that one of the two statements cannot be true.

Quote: › Lastly, the antichrist is supposed to be, according to scripture, a very powerful and charismatic being. THAT is the delusion that is sent by God. Not just any charlatan will do.

Irrelevant. An actively deluding God cannot at the same time want that all be saved, because His action in deluding people means that some will have no chance at being saved.

Quote: › In summation, God desires all men to be saved but He is not stupid and He knows many will refuse His salvation. Therefore they receive His wrath instead of His mercy and grace.

That interpretation does not fit what the plain text states. One can suffer God's wrath without being actively deluded by God, and that would completely work. But if God is actively deluding some away from salvation, then the stated desire is false on its face.

To put it bluntly, you simply cannot say that you want something then act in ways that prevent you from getting what you want. All that does is prove you really don't want what you say you want. Imagine, for example that I were to tell you I wanted to be your friend, but then punched you in the face. You would then know that I did not really want to be your friend, because punching someone in the face is contrary to friendly behavior. Now, others can act in ways that prevent it without affecting your desire. For instance, you could ignore my request for friendship or insult me. But that is not what the text tells us here. It does not tell us simply that some people refuse to believe, but rather that God deludes them so that they cannot believe.

Just got to thinking that 2 Thess. is really problematic even without the fact that it causes an inconsistency.

In that depiction, God offers a gift, but when it is refused, He not only takes the gift away, He makes it such that there is no chance of ever getting that gift, and from what we further know promises to torture those who refuse His gift.

Sounds abusive to me. And I never did respond well to the "love me or else" threat.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › Now, either God is very patient and willing to give every possible chance to reach salvation, or God's patience has limits beyond which He is willing to delude those who do not believe, thus removing any chance for their salvation.

God is indeed very patient, He has and continues to give every possible chance for people to reach salvation. But hey, each individual has only a very short life-span, people reject God during their short-life time and perish still refusing to accept the Gift. How long and how many people must live and die until you finish measuring God's patience? Surely, as far as we are concerned, the measure of that patience is relevant only as far as our life time goes. For the person that died refusing, in the past and at least until now no amount of God's patience will save him. The limits of God's patience is irrelevant for him

he has enjoyed it, rejected it, and missed his chance. So what "limits" are we talking about?

My take is that God has a programme and so it is not the limits of His patience that you should be looking at but that there is a time limit that has been set. Right now we are enjoying the Church Age, sometime in the future there will be Rapture, and then a Tribulation Period when the Restrainer is removed (v7) and that powerful delusion is released, after the Antichrist is destroyed there is another period called the Millennium. This is God's programme, and He has set a time limit.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › If God wants that all should have a fair chance at salvation and has an abundance of patience, then there would be no deluding of people. Now, that is not to say that they could not be deluded. Being deluded in and of itself is not the problem. The problem is God actively deluding them, thus proving that one of the two statements cannot be true.

It would indeed be a problem if God actively deluded people, but I disagree completely with your interpretation. God does not delude full stop. In fact, God had put in place a Restrainer whom God will in due time remove. When that happens the working delusion is released. You can blame God for releasing/sending that Antichrist, just as you could for releasing Satan. The context of this passage says how and why people got deceived, and Paul definitely do not mean that God actively deceived them.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Notice the "therefore".... "in order that"....

2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God gave us a powerful truth in Jesus with signs and wonders - human wisdom, logic, reason, understanding etc, process it but refuse & reject Jesus as not true.

Now, if human wisdom, logic, reason, understanding etc is sound and good, God will understand, but God expects that it should also refuse & reject as not true, the lawless one, who gave false signs and wonders.

But what happens? those people during the Tribulation will not refuse and reject the lawless one. This proves man's inclination, not God's manipulation of their choice.

Now look at this example of how the deceived takes verses to suit their own end:

The honest version:
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The deceived version from SAB:
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

There is a whole clause dropped in order to change the meaning.

Deny the truth... Your choice.
Deny the lie.... Good, you are being consistent.
Accept the lie... Your choice, but you are not being consistent.

Quote: › God is indeed very patient, He has and continues to give every possible chance for people to reach salvation.

I only pulled this bit though the rest will likely be addressed.

First, sending delusions to people so that they cannot reach salvation could only be further from this level of patience if God were to intentionally cut lives short.

Second, the passage in 2 Thess. is not referring to a future sending of delusion (i.e. the antichrist). It is very much a present tense usage, and that is abundantly clear by the phrasing.

Quote: › 2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Notice the "therefore".... "in order that".... 2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The phrasing is not a future tense usage. It is a present tense usage. Notice "sends" not "will send." This is a currently active process, not some to be seen process.

But even if it is a future process, it is still problematic because it is an active process of God with two intentions. First so that they should believe a lie. And second so that they all might be damned.

This is completely contrary to wanting that all should be saved. Sending a delusion that prevents some from being saved is no different than me punching you in the face while saying I want to be friends. No different at all.

You haven't even addressed that yet. You have presented some good arguments, but none of your argument has addressed the fact that sending delusions so that some will believe a lie and be damned flies completely in the face of wanting all to be saved. Seriously, even the rationale for sending the delusions is provided. And that rationale does not fit the previously stated desire.

You could argue that God's rationale is that He has to damn the irredeemable to protect others and increase the total number saved, but that would be putting more into the interpretation than is in the text. But you haven't even attempted that explanation. Instead, you cannot even recognize the full scope of the problem.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › First, sending delusions to people so that they cannot reach salvation

This is the point:
The big delusion is *not* there "so that they cannot reach salvation".

What Rerun and myself have been trying to tell you is that, these are the people who *already*:
1. would not accept, refuse to believe, reject the truth
2. had pleasure in unrighteousness

They already rejected the truth. There is no way that they will change their minds. Releasing the antichrist does not make them not reach salvation. Instead it allows them to believe the lie. They already chosen to jump in a hole, and there is an even bigger hole to jump into within.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › Second, the passage in 2 Thess. is not referring to a future sending of delusion (i.e. the antichrist). It is very much a present tense usage, and that is abundantly clear by the phrasing. ..... The phrasing is not a future tense usage. It is a present tense usage. Notice "sends" not "will send." This is a currently active process, not some to be seen process.

Are you talking about English tenses? There are really only two tenses in English, past tense and present tense. We can talk about future *senses* of course by using the present tense ("The bus leaves at 8.30.") and by other methods such as using "will", "going to", and adverbs of time. You can also talk about future time by using past tense eg. "I'd tell you if I knew".

In context, Paul here was correcting an error that had infiltrated the Thes. which was that they were already in the Tribulation period. Paul wrote to tell them that this is wrong. They were still in the Church Age and the events leading to the Tribulation period, like the Rapture, had not as yet happened. Here it is:

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The next few verses has clear indications that Paul was talking about future events I highlight the relevant words:

2Th 2:6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,.....

Quote: › This is the point: The big delusion is *not* there "so that they cannot reach salvation". What Rerun and myself have been trying to tell you is that, these are the people who *already*: 1. would not accept, refuse to believe, reject the truth 2. had pleasure in unrighteousness They already rejected the truth. There is no way that they will change their minds. Releasing the antichrist does not make them not reach salvation. Instead it allows them to believe the lie. They already chosen to jump in a hole, and there is an even bigger hole to jump into within.

I disagree with that interpretation. While they may be currently refusing and living in wicked pleasure, patience dictates not sending delusions that will prevent them from possibly seeing the error of their ways and changing. Still inconsistent.

Boundless patience does not fit with sending delusions so that people will believe what is false and be damned.

Therein lies the inconsistency. If the text simply said that those people will believe delusions and not be saved, there would be no problem. But that is not what it says at all.

In other words, the problem is that a God that is described as wanting all to be saved is described as being actively involved in an action that will definitely prevent some from being saved. Doesn't matter what the people have done. Doesn't matter when the action takes place. What matters is that the action does not fit with the description of His desire.

Nator, do you think this "active delusion" you say God is performing might be a response to an "active refusal" on the part of those who worship the antichrist?

The people seem to be delighting in wickedness. Do you think it is possible they know that the man of lawlessness is the antichrist and they follow him out of spite towards God?

I think this would fit into God's character quite well. God is punishing these people for actively delighting in wickedness.

A refusal to accept Jesus Christ and an acceptance of the antichrist are both activities that are clearly condemned in scripture.

In Revelation 13 those who actively accept the mark are met with, basically, instant condemnation.

Could these people be one and the same? Sounds very plausible.

I mean, when they take the mark, they are refused grace, according to that passage.

That is possible, but the problem regarding God's being patient still lingers.

How could any of those being deluded have any chance to change their minds and be saved? After all, if God wants all to be saved, then deluding any, regardless of whether or not they might change their mind, prevents them from being saved.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › Boundless patience does not fit with sending delusions so that people will believe what is false and be damned.

God certainly have boundless patience, but there is a time limit that goes with that, His programme for the end times. Are you saying that boundless patience means God has to continue to eternity to wait for 100% of the population of humans to believe? and only until then is His boundless patience proven? Hardly likely. In fact the bible says that sin will increase, not decrease.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › I disagree with that interpretation. While they may be currently refusing and living in wicked pleasure, patience dictates not sending delusions that will prevent them from possibly seeing the error of their ways and changing. Still inconsistent.

Again, I maintain that the delusion does not "prevent" them from possibly seeing the error or their ways and changing, I don't believe the text actually says that. The purpose is something else other than to prevent.

Quote: › God is punishing these people for actively delighting in wickedness.

He is punishing them by blocking their chance to ever find the truth?
Suppose these people are indeed lost in wickedness and belief the lie, if God actively, and to me there is no question about that 'actively,' blocks their chances to ever see the reality, they can never ever find God, as God robs them of their free will and forces them to continue sinning.

It would be the same as if you would force a thief to continue stealing to punish him for stealing.


Now the peculiar thing is: WHY does God need to send them delusions so they should belief the lie?

That only makes sense in the case that IF God would NOT send them delusions, the people WOULD finally see the truth.
After all: why would an all knowing God need to sent delusions to people if He would already know that they would always belief the lie?
If they already out of freewill would always belief the lie, God would not need to actively send them delusions.

Nator7821 wrote (View Post): › How could any of those being deluded have any chance to change their minds and be saved? After all, if God wants all to be saved, then deluding any, regardless of whether or not they might change their mind, prevents them from being saved.

Nator, there is a further point I like to raise here based on Romans, chapter 6 in particular, where we are told that everyone of us are slaves to sin. I liken this to a contractual agreement with sin. Sin is personified as the taskmaster that we serve, under contract, a contract that we cannot ourselves break. But God provided that break, annulling that contract through the work of Jesus. From this I draw the following points:

1. On our own, we cannot break such a contract, and therefore we are doomed.
2. God is the initiator in offering such an annulment, we either accept or reject.
3. God, being God, knows the heart of each individual and therefore knows their final choice.

So if there is a chance that an individual will change their mind, God already knows it and accounted for it, therefore the delusion does absolutely nothing to reduce such a chance.

If there is any "patience" being measured, its not so much to do with the individual changing their minds at some stage but to do with how many (to a number God has predetermined) will respond.

Quote: › God, being God, knows the heart of each individual and therefore knows their final choice. So if there is a chance that an individual will change their mind, God already knows it and accounted for it, therefore the delusion does absolutely nothing to reduce such a chance.

If for arguements sake God knows I'm not going to repent ,then I might as well sin (in a non harmfull way to others) and enjoy the pleasures that it gives me.

If God knows that I am going to repent ,then I might as well sin (with usual caveats) enjoy the pleasures thereof and wait for Gods ordained day that I repent.

It's a win win situation.

moleowner wrote (View Post): › If for arguements sake God knows I'm not going to repent ,then I might as well sin (in a non harmfull way to others) and enjoy the pleasures that it gives me.

non-harmful sin is an oxymoron, but I think you are getting close to finding out what the strong delusion is for. Enjoy.

moleowner wrote (View Post): › If God knows that I am going to repent ,then I might as well sin (with usual caveats) enjoy the pleasures thereof and wait for Gods ordained day that I repent.

One problem with this is that God is already continuously offering you the opportunity to repent, in this circumstance, and in that circumstance of your life. There is a passage in the NT that described the effect of sin on the conscience

1Ti 4:2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;

sin will burn our sensitivity of conscience, and each time a sin is committed, it is a rejection message to God, if you abandon yourself to sin, you are actively and progressively cutting off your ability to respond to God.

The other problem with this is that God may know, but you don't know when and if you are going to repent, and since you have missed the point, I repeat: God offers, and you respond. Meaning this is not a one way but a two way agreement.