Harrie wrote (View Post): › Could you tell me the Gospel message in just a few sentences and in your own words?

Our relationship with God is broken, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified reconciles me back to God.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, want to reject such beautiful promisses?

Why indeed?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Simply belief in Christ and all my sins are forgiven and I will always exist in a fantastic world, all criminals I have seen get away with crime .......

This is about you and God first, do not concern yourself with others first.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › .... I can’t accept Christ as Christianity does not add up and is not even consistent with itself.

Have you investigated Christ yourself? or is this a case of throwing the baby with the bath water? Is it Christ that you should reject or christianity?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › ... therefore see no reason to shut anyone out beforehand. Perhaps a matter of fair hearing?

I will not be brought into that. Go ahead hear others, come ask me or rerun when you are finished asking others.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › You and Rerun are trying to shut Revelations Too out of this discussion, that is the fruit I see and wonder about. Why?

I'm surprised that you still wonder about it, but anyway, I think you cannot see the fruit of the Spirit by mere words Harrie.

Quote: › “Our relationship with God is broken, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified reconciles me back to God.”

Than we reach, again, a for me very confusing, but returning topic:
Isn’t it a bit unfair that there were so many people that had nothing to do with that breaking of the relationship?
That was Adam, wasn’t it?
God creates people, they misbehave, and all their offspring inherits a sinful nature.
Generations later God creates the Mosaic laws and hands them to us humans.
Then again generations later God comes down to earth, to fulfill His own law, and in that way sets us free, so we do not need to obey His law any longer. Couldn’t He had simply told us?

Not me, not you, but the people that lived about 3000 years ago had to obey the Mosaic laws. Laws you and I do not need to obey as we were born milenia later. It almost sound like a lottery.
Perhaps I was brought up with the wrong idea of a God, sort of a friendly and wise magical grandfather. Not someone who would have different rules for one grandchild as for the other. Can you imagine that?

I said: “Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, want to reject such beautiful promises?”

Quote: › “Why indeed?”

That would be a rather long story, I’m afraid. In short: I choose truth over comfort.

Quote: › “This is about you and God first, do not concern yourself with others first.”

No, this is about me and thousandths roads, one leading to the truth. And that one with the sign ‘God’ on it does not look very promising.

Quote: › “Have you investigated Christ yourself? or is this a case of throwing the baby with the bath water? Is it Christ that you should reject or christianity?”

I honestly think I am beyond rejecting; I am at the point that it interest me how Christians make it work for them. And to be honest, I am also beyond the point of being amused.
I belief that most Christians are good people, like any other people. My parents were Christians and good people too, they gave me a good and stabile home with lots of love. But my parents did not really know much about their own religion. Their faith was a very simple and basic one. They simply believed that there was a God and that God was good. You can’t blame them for not thinking it all over, they didn’t even have time for that.
But what I recently are starting to worry about is how some of you are able to shut reality completely out. Everything that does conflict with the Bible is simply not true, no matter any evidence. Unpleasant and rather un-divine verses are polished up and interpreted quite optimistic.
That is not typical Christian or even theist, that is human I think.

That convinces me that mankind will have only a very slim chance to learn to deal with their weaknesses.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Isn’t it a bit unfair that there were so many people that had nothing to do with that breaking of the relationship? That was Adam, wasn’t it?

Again, don't worry about Adam or our forefathers, it is our own sin, not Adam's, that breaks fellowship with God.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Couldn’t He had simply told us?

He has told us.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Not someone who would have different rules for one grandchild as for the other. Can you imagine that?

When you look at the "laws" note that you can separate them into two distinct types: 1. Moral laws 2. Other laws.

The moral laws are applicable to you and me still.

The other laws, applies to God's chosen people, they were supposed to be a guide for the rest of us who are called Gentiles. For this reason they had stricter rules. All rules had a particular purpose, for the most part to keep the people untainted by the corruption that surrounds them. They are chosen people, reserved for God, he demanded a certain standard from them.

Try to see the distinctions, and unless you are a Jew, just stick with the New Covenant (contract).

Harrie wrote (View Post): › That would be a rather long story, I’m afraid. In short: I choose truth over comfort.

I chose truth too.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

Harrie wrote (View Post): › But my parents did not really know much about their own religion. Their faith was a very simple and basic one. They simply believed that there was a God and that God was good. You can’t blame them for not thinking it all over, they didn’t even have time for that.

Very good, that is all you need, simple faith and simple response. Do you think God is trying to make it that you have to have deep knowledge or understand complex issues to be restored back to Him? Of course not!

Harrie wrote (View Post): › But what I recently are starting to worry about is how some of you are able to shut reality completely out.

Don't worry about it. Your simple faith, your simple response is what matters.

Quote: › “Again, don't worry about Adam or our forefathers, it is our own sin, not Adam's, that breaks fellowship with God.”

So a new born baby is born without sin and without a sinful nature?

Quote: › “He has told us.”

God came down after leaving the Mosaic laws intact for many generations, then sacrificed Himself to fulfill His own law. To a non-Christian it does not sound as logical as to a Christian I suppose.

1: Why did God divide the people in two groups: one that had to follow the strict Mosaic laws and one that didn’t have to?
2: Why did God had to ‘die’ to fulfill His own law: it was His law, so if He thinks it did not longer apply He only needed to tell us without all that crucifying business and suffering.

Quote: › “When you look at the "laws" note that you can separate them into two distinct types: 1. Moral laws 2. Other laws. The moral laws are applicable to you and me still.”

So what happens to me today if I gather sticks on a Sabbath?

Quote: › “The other laws, applies to God's chosen people, they were supposed to be a guide for the rest of us who are called Gentiles. For this reason they had stricter rules. All rules had a particular purpose, for the most part to keep the people untainted by the corruption that surrounds them. They are chosen people, reserved for God, he demanded a certain standard from them.”

So God chose His elite, with different rules and rights from all the rest of us you mean?

Quote: › “I chose truth too. Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

Lots and lots of people swear they speak the truth and are the truth, ever been to a second hand car dealer?

I said: “But my parents did not really know much about their own religion. Their faith was a very simple and basic one. They simply believed that there was a God and that God was good. You can’t blame them for not thinking it all over, they didn’t even have time for that.”

Quote: › “Very good, that is all you need, simple faith and simple response. Do you think God is trying to make it that you have to have deep knowledge or understand complex issues to be restored back to Him? Of course not!”

I can imagine, for as soon as you start to think things over it falls apart.


I said: “But what I recently are starting to worry about is how some of you are able to shut reality completely out.”

Quote: › “Don't worry about it. Your simple faith, your simple response is what matters.”

And now I have the very strong feeling that you have interpreted my comment in the way you probably also read the Bible.

For the record: I do not belief in God’s existence at all; I was talking about the faith my parents had.

What I mean is that I start to worry about how some theists are able to shut reality completely out as it conflicts the Bible, using the Bible and the way they interpret it as a reference to the truth of all new information.

That means that you have locked yourself in.

Harrie,

Quote: › So a new born baby is born without sin and without a sinful nature?

Without the acts of sin, but with the sin nature.

Quote: › So what happens to me today if I gather sticks on a Sabbath?

You might pull your back out if you lift with your back and not your legs.

Quote: › So God chose His elite, with different rules and rights from all the rest of us you mean?

They were not "elite". They were chosen to make God known to the world. They blew it.

Just like any other chosen people would have.

Quote: › I can imagine, for as soon as you start to think things over it falls apart.

No. Your faith, because you have the Holy Spirit, will become stronger.

Quote: › What I mean is that I start to worry about how some theists are able to shut reality completely out as it conflicts the Bible, using the Bible and the way they interpret it as a reference to the truth of all new information.

You think that way. We don't.

Christians interpret reality through the light of God's word.

You interpret reality through the gospel of Dawkins.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › So what happens to me today if I gather sticks on a Sabbath?

You haven't understood my post to ask this question. Go re-read it.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Lots and lots of people swear they speak the truth and are the truth, ever been to a second hand car dealer?

Go re-read what Jesus said again. Jesus did not just claim to speak the truth, he said that he IS the truth. I feel really sad that you went down to compare it with a second hand car dealer... wow... the pride you exhibited Harrie.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › What I mean is that I start to worry about how some theists are able to shut reality completely out as it conflicts the Bible, using the Bible and the way they interpret it as a reference to the truth of all new information. That means that you have locked yourself in.

You said, "some theist" but as if you have clarified your statement, I say again, why worry about them? Do their faith, valid or not, effect your salvation? Not one iota. You have locked yourself out on their account.

Rerun,

I asked: “So a new born baby is born without sin and without a sinful nature?”

Quote: › “Without the acts of sin, but with the sin nature.”

Right, so a baby is born with a sinful nature. Is that the fault of the baby?


Me: “So what happens to me today if I gather sticks on a Sabbath?”

Quote: › “You might pull your back out if you lift with your back and not your legs.’

I’m sorry we can’t discuss this seriously. You didn’t answer my questions effectively after asking many times. I will stop my attempts on this one.

Quote: › “They were not "elite". They were chosen to make God known to the world. They blew it.”

In history there were two groups of people: those who had to obey the very strict Mosaic laws, and those who didn’t have to. The only difference between them was the time they were born.

Quote: › “Your faith, because you have the Holy Spirit, will become stronger.”

Yes, I understand that.


I remarked: “What I mean is that I start to worry about how some theists are able to shut reality completely out as it conflicts the Bible, using the Bible and the way they interpret it as a reference to the truth of all new information.”

Quote: › “You think that way. We don't.”

You said that you use the Bible as a reference to the truth of all other information, no matter what, didn’t you?

Quote: › “Christians interpret reality through the light of God's word.”

Something like this indeed.

Quote: › “You interpret reality through the gospel of Dawkins.”

I own his book ‘Climbing mount Improbable,’ and that’s it, I also own the Bible and most holy books humanity managed to produce and survived.
Dawkins is definitely not to me what God is to you. If information comes along that does make some of Dawkins ‘gospel’ unlikely, than I have no problem tossing that aside. I regard none of humans knowledge ‘sacred.’

If science manages to predict something correctly and makes a useful model of reality, than I start to belief in it.
If a book is supposed to be inspired by a good God, but talks about the price and punishment of slaves and such, and only predicts things by explaining events later on in a Nostradamus kind of manner, or only predicts things that can not be checked now, I simply bet on science for the time being. And that’s all there is to it.

For the time being I am only interested in how theist deal with certain logical problems.

Harrie,

Quote: › Is that the fault of the baby?

No. That is human nature.

When did I ever say that a baby will go to hell for it's sin nature?

Quote: › I’m sorry we can’t discuss this seriously. You didn’t answer my questions effectively after asking many times. I will stop my attempts on this one.

I told you many times, nothing will happen to you for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Nothing.

There are no spiritual risks if you disobey the ceremonial and national laws that are in the Mosaic law. God will not damn you for picking up sticks on the sabbath. God will not damn you for eating pork. God will not damn you if you eat shrimp.

I will say this loud and clear, again.

Jesus died to free us from the requirements of the ceremonial and national Mosaic laws.

Quote: › Something like this indeed.

You're being quite the literalist now Harrie.

If I need to change the brakes on my car, I don't get my bible.

But, if you tell me that we descended from an ape-like creature, I will get my bible and see if you are right.

Does that suffice as an answer?

Quote: › Dawkins is definitely not to me what God is to you.

You adhere to most of what Dawkins espouses.

Quote: › in a Nostradamus kind of manner,

Hardly that.

Oxy:

I asked: “So what happens to me today if I gather sticks on a Sabbath?”

Quote: › “You haven't understood my post to ask this question. Go re-read it.”

You are right, I can’t understand it at all, that is why I ask this question.

You said there are moral laws and ‘other’ laws. So how do you know the difference?
Is gathering sticks a moral law, or one of the others?


I said: “Lots and lots of people swear they speak the truth and are the truth, ever been to a second hand car dealer?”

Quote: › “Go re-read what Jesus said again. Jesus did not just claim to speak the truth, he said that he IS the truth. I feel really sad that you went down to compare it with a second hand car dealer... wow... the pride you exhibited Harrie.”

As I said many times before, we have no clue what Jesus really said Himself, as Jesus didn’t write down anything at all!
You belief anything in the Bible, and that I do compare with believing every word of a second hand car dealer. The Bible is written down by many different people over many years. You belief that every word must be divine inspired and I wonder why you belief that. If I ask theists, they show me a verse from the Bible that says the Bible is divine inspired.

But if the Bible is divine inspired, such ‘cultural’ things like the remarks that condone slavery could never have slipped in, don’t you think?
THAT is what I’m getting at.

Quote: › “You said, "some theist" but as if you have clarified your statement, I say again, why worry about them? Do their faith, valid or not, effect your salvation? Not one iota. You have locked yourself out on their account.”

Belief it or not, but I’m looking for the truth. That, to me, does not need to have anything to do with a God, and by now that also seems extremely unlikely.
What is left for me to do, as I see that now, is trying to understand how Christians deal with what I see as grave problems.

Rerun:
I asked: “Is that the fault of the baby? (inherited sinful nature)”

Quote: › “No. That is human nature. When did I ever say that a baby will go to hell for it's sin nature?”

Now you are on the topic: compare a baby with an inherited sinful nature with a baby that would not have an inherited sinful nature.

What baby would have a greater chance to go to hell?

Quote: › “I told you many times, nothing will happen to you for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Nothing.”

OK, thank you. So those laws mean absolutely nothing these days, but God still left them in the Bible.

Quote: › “Jesus died to free us from the requirements of the ceremonial and national Mosaic laws.”

Why did God created the Mosaic laws in the first place?
Wasn’t that to teach those ‘gentiles’ the right way to live?
We do not need that advice these days?

Quote: › “If I need to change the brakes on my car, I don't get my bible. But, if you tell me that we descended from an ape-like creature, I will get my bible and see if you are right.”

But how could tribal people that lived thousandths of years ago know about evolution? How would they know about the immorality of slavery?

‘Divine inspiration,’ you will answer.

They simply wrote down what they thought was the truth at that time. Suppose they were not divine inspired?

“They were,” you will answer, and you will show me the Bible verse that proves it.

So, how can I, as a non Christian, become convinced that the Bible is indeed Divine inspired?
‘Open your heart to the Holy Spirit,’ you will tell me. “And let Him guide you interpreting the Bible.”
But to open my heart to the Holy Spirit, I first must become convinced that the Holy Spirit really exists.

“Read the Bible,” you will probably tell me...

Harrie,

Quote: › compare a baby with an inherited sinful nature with a baby that would not have an inherited sinful nature.

You can't. All are born with that sin nature.

Quote: › OK, thank you. So those laws mean absolutely nothing these days, but God still left them in the Bible.

God has to show us His standard of excellence. He had to show us WHY we need to be saved.

How are you going to know without a frame of reference?

The law is that frame of reference.

Quote: › Why did God created the Mosaic laws in the first place?

Again, to give us a standard for excellence.

Quote: › Wasn’t that to teach those ‘gentiles’ the right way to live?

No. It teaches us God standard of holiness.

Quote: › We do not need that advice these days?

We absolutely do.

Now, we have Christ as our law.

He is our standard for excellence.

Quote: › But how could tribal people that lived thousandths of years ago know about evolution?

As evolution, as you define it, is untrue; they didn't need to know about it.

Quote: › How would they know about the immorality of slavery?

God told them.

Quote: › Suppose they were not divine inspired?

Suppose that how?

Quote: › “Read the Bible,” you will probably tell me...

That is one way.

I asked: “compare a baby with an inherited sinful nature with a baby that would not have an inherited sinful nature.”

Quote: › “You can't. All are born with that sin nature.”

I try to get into your world of thinking, please go along for the sake of the argument:

Suppose a baby would NOT have a inherited sinful nature, what would his chances be compared to a normal baby to end up in hell?

Quote: › “God has to show us His standard of excellence. He had to show us WHY we need to be saved.”

He forced a very strict law upon us and then had to come to earth to save us from His law?

I asked: “Why did God created the Mosaic laws in the first place?”

Quote: › “Again, to give us a standard for excellence.”

A standard for excellence with laws about slavery?

Me: “Wasn’t that to teach those ‘gentiles’ the right way to live?”

Quote: › “No. It teaches us God standard of holiness.”

So the Mosaic laws are God’s standard of holiness? But why do they differ than so much that we do not even need to follow them today? Can a standard of holiness differ that much?

Me: “We do not need that advice these days?”

Quote: › “We absolutely do. Now, we have Christ as our law. He is our standard for excellence.”

But first we had the Mosaic laws, why did they need to be replaced with Christ?


I asked: “How would they know about the immorality of slavery?”

Quote: › “God told them.”

Could you indicate to me the verses that show the immorality of slavery? As I have only found the verses that condone slavery.

Quote: › “Suppose that how?”

Suppose that the Bible is not divine inspired, what would that mean to you?

I asked: “compare a baby with an inherited sinful nature with a baby that would not have an inherited sinful nature.”

Quote: › “You can't. All are born with that sin nature.”

I try to get into your world of thinking, please go along for the sake of the argument:

Suppose a baby would NOT have a inherited sinful nature, what would his chances be compared to a normal baby to end up in hell?

Quote: › “God has to show us His standard of excellence. He had to show us WHY we need to be saved.”

He forced a very strict law upon us and then had to come to earth to save us from His law?

I asked: “Why did God created the Mosaic laws in the first place?”

Quote: › “Again, to give us a standard for excellence.”

A standard for excellence with laws about slavery?

Me: “Wasn’t that to teach those ‘gentiles’ the right way to live?”

Quote: › “No. It teaches us God standard of holiness.”

So the Mosaic laws are God’s standard of holiness? But why do they differ than so much that we do not even need to follow them today? Can a standard of holiness differ that much?

Me: “We do not need that advice these days?”

Quote: › “We absolutely do. Now, we have Christ as our law. He is our standard for excellence.”

But first we had the Mosaic laws, why did they need to be replaced with Christ?


I asked: “How would they know about the immorality of slavery?”

Quote: › “God told them.”

Could you indicate to me the verses that show the immorality of slavery? As I have only found the verses that condone slavery.

Quote: › “Suppose that how?”

Suppose that the Bible is not divine inspired, what would that mean to you?

Harrie,

Quote: › Suppose a baby would NOT have a inherited sinful nature, what would his chances be compared to a normal baby to end up in hell?

Exactly the same. God would take into account the lack of a sinful choice.

Both babies would be in heaven immediately upon dying.

Quote: › He forced a very strict law upon us and then had to come to earth to save us from His law?

Harrie, for the last time, God did not save us FROM His law. He saved us from our sins and sin nature.

Quote: › A standard for excellence with laws about slavery?

Slave for Hebrews were generally treated way better than in neighboring countries.

Quote: › Can a standard of holiness differ that much?

No. Jesus Christ obeyed the law perfectly. All who have faith in Christ have, by default, obeyed the same laws perfectly. That means salvation for all who have faith in Christ.

Quote: › why did they need to be replaced with Christ?

Galatians 3:6-14

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Read that seven times. Seriously.

Quote: › Could you indicate to me the verses that show the immorality of slavery? As I have only found the verses that condone slavery.

You should read your bible more.

1 Timothy 1:8-11

8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Every one of these acts are condemned by the Old Testament in one way or another.

You should read the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#cite_note-119

Quote: › Suppose that the Bible is not divine inspired, what would that mean to you?

I don't know.

Me: “Suppose a baby would NOT have a inherited sinful nature, what would his chances be compared to a normal baby to end up in hell?”

Quote: › “Exactly the same. God would take into account the lack of a sinful choice. Both babies would be in heaven immediately upon dying.”

Suppose those babies grow up, how would their chances be then?

Me: “He forced a very strict law upon us and then had to come to earth to save us from His law?”

Quote: › “Harrie, for the last time, God did not save us FROM His law. He saved us from our sins and sin nature.”

I’m sorry, but I’m getting a bit confused every now and then.
So we all do not have a sinful nature any longer?
But in that case even I would be able to see reality as it is, as I would not have a sinful nature anymore that could be warping my mind?

Quote: › “Slave for Hebrews were generally treated way better than in neighboring countries.”

If you would have to make laws for the generations to come, would you make laws that would condone slavery, or would you explain that slavery is wrong?

Quote: › “No. Jesus Christ obeyed the law perfectly. All who have faith in Christ have, by default, obeyed the same laws perfectly. That means salvation for all who have faith in Christ.”

Shouldn’t Jesus have stoned that woman that was to be stoned according to the Mosaic laws? Jesus was without sin? And He sinned by not obeying the Mosaic laws? Not that I disagree with that, mind you...

Me: “why did they (Mosaic laws) need to be replaced with Christ?”
You quote Galatians 3:6-14

You told me to read that seven times. Christ redeemed us from that Mosaic curse, God Himself placed upon us. Did I read that correctly?

Me: “Could you indicate to me the verses that show the immorality of slavery? As I have only found the verses that condone slavery.”

Quote: › “You should read your bible more.”

You quote: 1 Timothy 1:8-11 where there is indeed a remark about slave traders, but that is in the NT again.
God did guide people with the OT for ages, isn’t that correct? All those ages God did not condemn slavery for one bit, while I would expect the whole Bible to be divine inspired and therefore of a divine inspired truth for all people for all times. But I'm glad that God changed His mind in the NT, once again.

Me: “Suppose that the Bible is not divine inspired, what would that mean to you?”

Quote: › “I don't know.”

You never considered that, did you?