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St. Paul vs Jesus (Pbuh)
 
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Jinn
2 Points

USA
PostYou have posted in this forum: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:43 pm   Post subject:  St. Paul vs Jesus (Pbuh) Back to top 

As some of you probably know Jesus (peace be upon him) and Paul had some disagreements with what Jesus preached and Paul began to persecute his followers. But not until God came to Paul did he suddenly stop. Here is what Jesus(pbuh) predicted and what Paul did and preached.

In reality the teachings in Paul's 14 letters and the true Synoptic Gospels differ. Jesus(pbuh) did predict what was going to happen after he left this world:

"[b]Be wary of false prophets who come to you in the disguise of sheep while at heart they are voracious wolfs. You will know them by the deeds they do... [/b]so every healthy tree bears good fruit but a rotten tree bears defective fruit....[b]Many will say to Me on that Day "Lord, Lord, did we not preach in Your name and in Your name cast out demons and in Your name do many wonderful works?" Then i will frankly say to them, I never knew you. Get away from Me you evil workers[/b]." (Mathew 7:15-23)

Now by keeping that passage in mind the Gospel does show Jesus'(pbuh) true concept of god:

- "He is One, and there is none beside Him." (Mark 12:32)
- "Hear, O Isreal: the Lord our God,The Lord is One, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mark 12:29-32)
- "You shall worship the Lord, your God and serve only Him." ( Mark 4:10 & Luke 4:8)
- " I can do nothing independently; I judge as I am informed and My judgement is fair; for I am not looking out for My will but the will of Him who sent me" (John 5:30)

Jesus(pbuh) did in fact preach in a single God. But what Paul preached was much different of what Jesus(pbuh) taught. Paul preached Jesus(pbuh) equal to God:

- "Immediately he (Paul) began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, He is the Son of God." (Acts 9:20)
- "For in Him all the fullness God was pleased to dwell." (The letter of Paul to the Colossians 1:19)
- "Christ Jesus who, though exsisted in the form of God, did not consider His equality with God something to cling to." (The letter of Paul to the Philippians 2:6)
- "Christ has ransomed us from the curse of the Law in as much that He became a curse for us. for it is written , Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" (letter of Paul the the Galatian 3:13)

Keep in mind the in the Gospel as what the unforgivable sin is: "Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy agaisnt the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word agiasnt the Son of Mary will be forgiven, but whoever speaks agiasnt the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the next." (Matthew 12:31-32)

Paul even disgraced the teachings of Jesus(pbuh):

"Of course, anyone who feeds on milk is inexperienced in the matter of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature person, for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish between good and evil. Therefore let us leave behind the elementary teachings of Christ and advance towards maturity." (The letter of Paul to the Hebrews 5:13;6:1)

Paul Taught to the Gentiles which Jesus(pbuh) forbid:

- "He (Jesus) replied, 'I was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
- " These twelve Jesus sent out with a charge: "Do not go to the Gentiles nor enter a Samaritan city, but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)


Remember Muhammad (pbuh) confirmed both the Gospel and the Torah and the prophets that came before him. Muslims love and respect Jesus. Is that not enough to earn the same kind of respect and love from Christians. Remember muslims are the nearest to Christians in faith. In the noble Koran it says:

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers you will find those who say `We are Christians`: because amongst these are men who are devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (5:82)

So please do not try and distance yourselves from muslims by saying we believe in two different gods. Muslims and christirans believe in the God that commanded Abraham (pbuh) to sacrafice his son, told Noah (pbuh) to build his arc, who allowed Moses and Aaron (pbut) to free the jews from Egypt, and who sent the angel Gabriel to Mary (pbuh) to give her glad tidings of her son Christ Jesus (pbuh).

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Oxyrhynchus
Moderator
23216 Points

Australia
PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:42 pm   Post subject:   Back to top 

Jinn,

Generaly speaking its seems that you see these issues from an angle which does not take account of the bigger picture. Perhaps I can offer some aspects which you may not have thought of, and I pray that you may find them useful or worthy of further consideration:

God is one
First, we Christians, just as Paul did, believe and affirm ONLY ONE GOD. We agree with you there. Lets get that clear!

The concept of this One God is how we differ. Let me use a couple of illustrations, if you look at a cube from one angle only, seeing exactly only one face of the cube, you will say its a square, but if you move around it, you see that a cube has more than one side to it. Another illustration is a triangle, we see that a triangle has three corners to it, if we take one corner off, its no longer a triangle, doesn't matter which one you take off, it will no longer be a triangle. Another illustration, water or chemically known as H2O can have three forms, liquid, gas (steam), and solid (ice), it can exist as three forms but its still H2O.

Now God is far more than a cube, triangle or water, therefore we do not, and should not limit God. Should we? is there anything beyond God's ability to do?

Hence, what Jesus taught as quoting the Torah "God is one" does not contradict what is revealed by God the Holy Spirit through Paul in the Epistles "Jesus ... equality with God". To us, Paul is as much a nabi as Abraham and Moses was. And their testimony having come from God (by the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit) naturally do not contradict unless you see only part of the picture. OR you choose to see only one part of the picture and ascribe the rest as false, lies and from Iblis.

The Unforgivable Sin
If you read the passage just before it or a little wider (Mat. 12:22-32), you can see a picture where Jesus just performed a miracle, but that He perceived the thoughts of some of the people there watching, the large crowd thought and said its confirmation that Jesus is the Messiah, but the Pharisees said no its by the power of Iblis that Jesus performed the miracle. So this passage you quote has this background, and what is unforgivable is ascribing Jesus' works and miracles to Iblis, instead of God, by which God the Holy Spirit is blasphemed.

The lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Mat. 10:5,6)
Again I would like to suggest to you that a good way you read most of the bible (except the Zabur) in order to understand it, is to read not just a short part of it, but in context, that is, in ever wider segments. I guarantee that you will find less and less alleged contradictions if you do this.

We do not have to widen our reading here so much that we have to use other books to answer this issue. Note that this command is a temporary one and was issued temporarily for the 12 disciples. Jesus wants to proclaim a specific message, the coming of the Kingdom of heaven (10:7) this is a specific message for God's chosen people as promissed to Israel alone. The credentials, to prove that is from God is found in the next verse 10:8. Jesus is the King of that Kingdom. But the prediction is rejection. We come to the Unforgivable Sin passage in Chapter 12 also to illustrate this point, where Jesus' as King and Messiah is rejected. But after Jesus was crucified, burried and resurrected, His new command is found in Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
NASB


Now Paul's letters no longer contradict the Injil. Paul's letters cannot be said to have taught what Jesus forbid.

Elementary teachings of THE Christ (Hebrews 5:13 - 6:1)
First it is uncertain that Hebrews was written by Paul. Secondly this book was written with consideration of a particular theme... to show that the Christ is superior to the prophets! Thats the background you need to take into account. Thirdly, the way I understand this passage (difficult as it is) is to mean that it is elementary teaching to teach about Jesus as the Christ, it is elementary to learn about Jesus as the Messiah that was spoken of by the prophets, it is elementary to acknowledge that the Christ must be the only one that brings salvation to all, and yes, to you and me, it is elementary to know and accept this. The author is now encouraging its readers to learn more mature stuff.

If you love and respect Jesus, the Tawrat, the Zabur and the Injil, then take the warning as written in Matthew which is part of the Injil. I am not offended if you do not respect what is written and call them lies or a book full of errors and contradictions, because it is the Holy Spirit whom you have to answer to. He is the real author behind the writers, He is the author that inspired nabi Paul. I humbly ask you to carefully check its contents again and reconsider. Although we may not know all the answers, I and others here will be willing to go through any difficult passages with you to weigh its testimony honestly.

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