is their really such a thing as freewill?

"Please give any scriptural arguments which refutes this statement. "

Here you go:
Romans 9: 10-23
9For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

That text is pretty clear to me. I'm not sure what else I can say. Besides no we shall not just wait for God's mercy we should follow all of scripture: be on our knees praying, teaching, preaching, seeking God everyday, and all the other commands in scripture. Everybody thinks if God is the one that grants us faith then we just sit back and do nothing, well obviously thats not biblical. We are commanded to do all the other things, but incapable of doing it with out the grace of God.

I also think of

2 Corinthians 3:12-18
12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one[d] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord s the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

and
Ephesians 1:3-10
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us[b] for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

I hope that helps. Once I was given "eyes to see and ears hear" it changed my life, this doctrine of the absolute Soverengty of God makes God God and puts man far down the list where he belongs.

All of you quoting john 3:16...might I add that you read it in context:

John 3:1-21
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." 3Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

Read through this, all of it...not just what I made bold. Seems to me it talks about election here as well.

Verse 18 makes a good point about reprobation; God did not pick some to go to hell...they were already going to hell to begin with. He chose to give the elect(who were also condemned) a chance at redemption. If you want true fairness...then God should send us all to hell.

I would also like to add that when he said "our testimony"...he is refering to the Holy Spirit , and of course himself and the father because they are one.

You have posted in this forum: Sat May 07, 2005 8:59 am Post subject:

Rapadura said: "As far as my understanding goes, Christ didn't die. His body may have become life-less but he continued to live in his spiritual body (which looked different from his material one) and reappeared before his disciples."

I did a quick search and there are literally dozens of texts in the New Testament that literally say Christ died or death or die. The one that is the most dear to me is Romans 5:9-11
9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Without Christ's atoning death, taking on all my sins and the sins of the elect and satisfing the wrath of God by bearing all those sins in his DEATH I have no hope. If Christ didn't DIE for my sins then I have no hope to stand in front of a just, holy, righteous, wrathful, almighty God. The Death of Christ is the very foundation of our faith. The bible uses that type of language over and over again so I will use that type of language.

I hope I'm not coming accross as if i got this all figured out, it took me years of reading, studing, asking questions, and praying to understand any of this. By the grace of God I have a little understanding of these things, and that is who I give all the credit to. So please continue to search, ask, study, and if God grants grace you will see the wonderful truths of his word.

Quote; So do you believe every person is born able to choose God over the desires of their human nature?

Yes and No,

No, for those persons (souls) who have taken birth in a body belonging to lower species (animals, plants or even lower) than that of the humans. They have no free will, they are completely under the control of material nature. They are simply going through the cycle of birth and death to be purched from the reactions of their sinful activities which they have performed during the stay in their last human body.

Yes, for every person (soul) who has taken birth in a body belonging to the human species (earthly humans, demons, angels, demigods,...). Souls (persons), covered by a human body, have the freedom to make choices in the matter of desiring either self-centred thoughts or god-centred thoughts. The thoughts we choose to ponder upon, mold our consciousness. Depending on the consciousness of the soul, it receives a certain type of body after it has left its previous one. So depending on his own choices to think either this way or that way, the person either goes to God or he goes to hell (enlightenment, knowledge, happiness or darkness, illusion and misery). Either we turn our face towards God and live for His pleasure or we turn it away from Him and try to live for our own sense pleasure (which will ultimately end up in frustration). Either we go to His kingdom or we go to the kingdom of illusion and darkness. There is no other choice, but the choice is up to the individual himself and God is not going to interfere with that choice, eventhough He can.

Quote; "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Yes, but what does this exactly mean? It is not said here that His mercy is not equaly available to everyone. Here it is said that God has His own free will.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

God has choosen Pharaoh to fulfill a particular mission. But he must have had certain qualifications in order to be choosen for that. Pharaoh must have developed a particular consciousness which made him fit to be choosen. To spread God's name all over the earth is not a small thing. The fact that Pharaoh has been choosen for this task means that his devotion to the Lord was already developed to a high extend, otherwise such kind of mercy is not bestowed on a particular person. Pharaoh has developed this devotion by focusing his desires on pleasing the Lord, therefore he became fit to be choosen and fit to receive it.

The main message I'm getting from your reply is that it seems to me that you belief that God is just doing whatever He likes (which is true) and that He does it without any reason, or at least, that we are unable to understand His reasoning. This may be partly true also, but there is a part of His reasening we must be able to understand. How else could there be any question of developing a relationship between one person (God) and another (the living being), if the subordinate person cannot understand the desires of the superior person whatsoever. How can the servant please His master if the master reciprocates in a way which is inconseivable for the servant? The servant may be insignificant and foolish, but the master is so expert that He knows how to make Himself understandable and visible even to His blind servants. Even on this earthly planet, the mother is not ignoring the cries of her child, how should the Lord, who is perfect in any way, ignore the cries of His fallen sons? God is not cruel, He is the sweetest father, master, friend and lover of all.

Quote; I did a quick search and there are literally dozens of texts in the New Testament that literally say Christ died or death or die

This is a good example of what I mean to say. Christ died, but at same time he didn't.
One time Christ is refered to as the one we could see with our mortal eyes. That person who appeared in a human body. Another time Christ is refered to as the one who is reborn.
The mortal Christ died, but the Christ who was born from the spirit didn't.
Christ's mercy was, that he took all the sins of those who were sincerely following him in his teachings. He took these sins upon his mortal body and left it. Together with all the sins, his mortal body was left behind. But the true Christ, the eternal one, who was one with the father, having no differences in desires, never stopt existing, nor did he ever take birth again.
Where is this refering to? It is refering to the fact that we are all spiritual eternal beings in essence. We have taken up a mortal body due to having desires which are not dovetaled with the Lord's desires. We could speak of a real ego (person, self) and a false ego. The real ego is the true christ and our false ego is that personality which came into existence when the soul took up a mortal body. The false ego came into existence when the real ego identified himself with his mortal body.
Jesus showed us that we should give up this false identification, by crucifying our self-centered desires, our desires to satisfy the senses of this mortal body. We should instead try to gratify the senses of the Lord by glorifying His qualities, chanting His names, thinking of Him... Than, after purification (being freed from material attachments and desires), we will again understand our real identity, servants of the Lord, and go back home to His eternal Kingdom.

Quote; I hope I'm not coming accross as if i got this all figured out, it took me years of reading, studing, asking questions, and praying to understand any of this. By the grace of God I have a little understanding of these things, and that is who I give all the credit to. So please continue to search, ask, study, and if God grants grace you will see the wonderful truths of his word.

Yes, Neastman, I'm perceiving, recognizing and respecting your faith and sincerity.

For the record, this debate is not a new one, as the scriptures state "There is nothing new under the sun." This issue has been dealt with since the early Church, most notably poping up in about 300 AD with Arius, then again in 420 AD with Pelagius, and again in the 1500's with Erasmus, all in which were arguing your side of things and all were pronounced as heretics.

First, let me say that I agree with you on the death of Christ issue, I don't necessarly see what it has to do with the issue at hand, other than the fact that he had to die (human body) in order that we might live, on that alone we have salvation.

Rapadura said: "Even on this earthly planet, the mother is not ignoring the cries of her child, how should the Lord, who is perfect in any way, ignore the cries of His fallen sons? God is not cruel, He is the sweetest father, master, friend and lover of all.

If I have ever said or implied that God is cruel or evil to his creation let me be anathema. God is just, he will deservingly punish a people in the end for THEIR OWN rebellion, theirs sins are real they chose to do them, I am solely responsible for my sins. Every sin ever commited will be paid for in full in the end, either in Hell or on the cross, no sin goes unpunished. The fact is that all deserve to perish, nobody deserves a relatioinship with God, but God in his inifinite wisedom, mercy, and love has chosen some for salvation. I think this is the whole point of Romans 9, there was nothing good that Esau could do to gain favor with God, he was destined to rebell, same as Judas, he was destined to betray Christ, like wise we are all rebellious traitors until God has mercy.

"The fact that Pharaoh has been choosen for this task means that his devotion to the Lord was already developed to a high extend, otherwise such kind of mercy is not bestowed on a particular person. Pharaoh has developed this devotion by focusing his desires on pleasing the Lord, therefore he became fit to be choosen and fit to receive it."

Your missing the entire point of the text here... Pharaoh was not serving God, he was rebelling against God. Here Paul is refering to the Exodus account, where God had hardened Pharaoh's heart so that He could display his wonders, mainly the ten plagues. Pharoah was used as a tool in the hand of the Almighty to accomplish His good purposes.

Exodus 4:21-23:
21And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, 23and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me." If you refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill your firstborn son.'"

"Yes, but what does this exactly mean? It is not said here that His mercy is not equaly available to everyone."

THat is exactly what Paul is saying "He has mercy on who he wills and he hardens who he wills". If you re-read Romans 9 Paul wrestles with the very issues you are wrestling with... "What shall we say then is their injustice on God's part?" or "Who can resist His will?" You seem to be asking... How could a good God do this? The text is clear, "Who are you oh man to answer back to God, is what is molded say to the molder why did you make me like this". The natural human response that Paul even states is: thats not fair, or how can this be. But let us remember that we are solely responsible for our sins, never God. This doctrine should make you fall to your knees and praise the Lord more than ever before and cry: "Why God, why have you given me favor, I am a worthless sinner that deserves condemnation, and you have chosen me for mercy. You alone are worthy, you alone are holy, you alone are just, you alone are God."

"How can the servant please His master if the master reciprocates in a way which is inconseivable for the servant?"

There are literally dozens and dozens of texts that tell us how to please God, mainly by obeying his commands. This is fairly obvious... isn't it?
The problem is that becasue of our sin nature we are incapable of pleasing Him or obeying Him. That is why he sent his son.

With all that being said, I would like to add, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved", and "Come all those who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest." We must teach all of scripture: Come to the Father, repent of your sins, believe in the name of Jesus. Anybody who believes will be saved. There is no doubt here, so believe Christian believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But why do some beleive and not others?

Isaiah 46:9-10, "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'"

neastman wrote (View Post): › For the record, this debate is not a new one, as the scriptures state "There is nothing new under the sun." This issue has been dealt with since the early Church, most notably poping up in about 300 AD with Arius, then again in 420 AD with Pelagius, and again in the 1500's with Erasmus, all in which were arguing your side of things and all were pronounced as heretics.

First, let me say that I agree with you on the death of Christ issue, I don't necessarly see what it has to do with the issue at hand, other than the fact that he had to die (human body) in order that we might live, on that alone we have salvation.

Rapadura said: "Even on this earthly planet, the mother is not ignoring the cries of her child, how should the Lord, who is perfect in any way, ignore the cries of His fallen sons? God is not cruel, He is the sweetest father, master, friend and lover of all.

If I have ever said or implied that God is cruel or evil to his creation let me be anathema. God is just, he will deservingly punish a people in the end for THEIR OWN rebellion, theirs sins are real they chose to do them, I am solely responsible for my sins. Every sin ever commited will be paid for in full in the end, either in Hell or on the cross, no sin goes unpunished. The fact is that all deserve to perish, nobody deserves a relatioinship with God, but God in his inifinite wisedom, mercy, and love has chosen some for salvation. I think this is the whole point of Romans 9, there was nothing good that Esau could do to gain favor with God, he was destined to rebell, same as Judas, he was destined to betray Christ, like wise we are all rebellious traitors until God has mercy.

"The fact that Pharaoh has been choosen for this task means that his devotion to the Lord was already developed to a high extend, otherwise such kind of mercy is not bestowed on a particular person. Pharaoh has developed this devotion by focusing his desires on pleasing the Lord, therefore he became fit to be choosen and fit to receive it."

Your missing the entire point of the text here... Pharaoh was not serving God, he was rebelling against God. Here Paul is refering to the Exodus account, where God had hardened Pharaoh's heart so that He could display his wonders, mainly the ten plagues. Pharoah was used as a tool in the hand of the Almighty to accomplish His good purposes.

Exodus 4:21-23:
21And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, 23and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me." If you refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill your firstborn son.'"

"Yes, but what does this exactly mean? It is not said here that His mercy is not equaly available to everyone."

THat is exactly what Paul is saying "He has mercy on who he wills and he hardens who he wills". If you re-read Romans 9 Paul wrestles with the very issues you are wrestling with... "What shall we say then is their injustice on God's part?" or "Who can resist His will?" You seem to be asking... How could a good God do this? The text is clear, "Who are you oh man to answer back to God, is what is molded say to the molder why did you make me like this". The natural human response that Paul even states is: thats not fair, or how can this be. But let us remember that we are solely responsible for our sins, never God. This doctrine should make you fall to your knees and praise the Lord more than ever before and cry: "Why God, why have you given me favor, I am a worthless sinner that deserves condemnation, and you have chosen me for mercy. You alone are worthy, you alone are holy, you alone are just, you alone are God."

"How can the servant please His master if the master reciprocates in a way which is inconseivable for the servant?"

There are literally dozens and dozens of texts that tell us how to please God, mainly by obeying his commands. This is fairly obvious... isn't it?
The problem is that becasue of our sin nature we are incapable of pleasing Him or obeying Him. That is why he sent his son.

With all that being said, I would like to add, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved", and "Come all those who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest." We must teach all of scripture: Come to the Father, repent of your sins, believe in the name of Jesus. Anybody who believes will be saved. There is no doubt here, so believe Christian believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But why do some beleive and not others?

Isaiah 46:9-10, "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'"

AMEN!

You have posted in this forum: Mon May 09, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject:

Has anyone pointed out that "Freewill" refers in scripture to a type of offering? I don't know of any translation that uses it in reference to Choice.

Hugh McBryde

You have posted in this forum: Mon May 09, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject:

Prakk wrote (View Post): › Has anyone pointed out that "Freewill" refers in scripture to a type of offering? I don't know of any translation that uses it in reference to Choice.

Hugh McBryde

Yeah..that's a good point...you see it a lot in the old testament..

You have posted in this forum: Mon May 09, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject:

The next point would be that choices are not even remotely related to free will. Choices are structured. A maze has only so many options, but going through the walls for most of us, is not one of them.

Hugh McBryde

You have posted in this forum: Mon May 09, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject:

Prakk wrote (View Post): ›
The next point would be that choices are not even remotely related to free will. Choices are structured. A maze has only so many options, but going through the walls for most of us, is not one of them.

Hugh McBryde

This leads me back to the idea that we appear to be at a lack for a precise definition of this thing called "free will". If Prakk is correct, the implication is that, unlike choice, free will is unstructured.

What is then, chaotic? The idea of "will" we seem to understand. But what does it mean for a thing to be "free"? Even God acts out of His nature. Yet we do not say that He is somehow bound by His nature. Since His choices (i.e., what He "wills") are never in conflict with His nature, He is not bound in any way, nor coerced ... but rather is free to choose according to His nature.

Is our will therefore "free" as long as there is no conflict between our nature and our choices? And if there is a conflict, are we therefore "free" when we resolve the conflict and finally act? Yet what if we act with "reservations"?

What is done with reservation could not be free. So one would think that only a sinless being, or a being with no conscience at all, could be "free".

I'm just throwing out some ideas to think about. But what I'm getting at is that perhaps ones will is "free" as long as one has accepted those boundries within which the choice will be made. Certainly this is true about God, because the boundries are in some ways the very definition of His nature (what is good). But for us, perhaps as long as we "accept" His boundries, and are "willing" to make choices within those boundries ... perhaps only then is our will truly "free".

Arythmael

Quote: Every sin ever commited will be paid for in full in the end, either in Hell or on the cross, no sin goes unpunished...
Indeed, no sin goes unpunished, every action has a reaction, but not just in the end. It's not that at the end of our life we get the whole load thrown over our heads. At every moment in our life we are receiving the reactions of our actions. All our sufferings such as diseases, losses, pains, depressions, anxieties etc as well as our happiness, gains, pleasures etc we are receiving at every moment in our life are nothing more than the reactions we are receiving from our previous actions. It's an ongoing cycle of action and reaction, which can be changed at every moment.
It's a fact that certain sinful or pious actions have a too big reaction which our present body is unable to bear. These reactions are stored in a seed-like form in order to be bestowed upon the person at the proper time. This time is generally at the time of physical death and generally results in either going to heaven or hell.

...The fact is that all deserve to perish, nobody deserves a relatioinship with God, but God in his inifinite wisedom, mercy, and love has chosen some for salvation...
Indeed in our present condition we may not deserve this. But when one serves the Lord according to his capacity, accepts his present material conditioning and all the while patiently tolerating his suffering, eternal life in the Kingdom of God becomes his rightful claim.

Quote: Your missing the entire point of the text here... Pharaoh was not serving God, he was rebelling against God. Here Paul is refering to the Exodus account, where God had hardened Pharaoh's heart so that He could display his wonders, mainly the ten plagues. Pharoah was used as a tool in the hand of the Almighty to accomplish His good purposes.
I'm not so sure whether I'm missing the point here. From the quotes you have given, we can understand that Pharaoh was a rightuous ruler and a soft-hearted person, how els would God have to make his heart hard? Besides that, God used Pharaoh to accomplish His good purposes.

If you re-read Romans 9 Paul wrestles with the very issues you are wrestling with...
Paul is not necessarily wrestling with the issue, he is rather asking this question to raise the issue, so it could be solved for our sake.

"How can the servant please His master if the master reciprocates in a way which is inconseivable for the servant?"
This question was raised in a certain context in order to clarify a particular point I was trying to make;