I dont know.
personaly I think freewill does exist.
I found these 5 claims I cant remember where...interesting enough to cramp the brain.
A logical deduction

MAN'S FREEWILL
1.) God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.
2.) Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.
4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.
5.) Free-will doesn't exist.

I love freewill!

Quote: › 1.) God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.

Does this mean that God knows an absolute future? Is that what you are trying to say?

Quote: › 2.) Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.

This is true.

Quote: › 3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.

This is true except for the concept of the "unchanging plan" as mentioned in number one.

Quote: › 4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.

Once again, this would be true if everything above is true, but the break occurs in point number one

Quote: › 5.) Free-will doesn't exist.

Obviously the conclusion is false becase of false premises.

Very very briefly, just to start, I'll demonstrate how freewill exists and how God doesn't interfere.

1) There are things that God cannot do. The bible teaches us this. God is truth, so he cannot lie. God is holy therefore he cannot sin, do wrong, or evil.

2) If free will does not exist, then God does everything actively. Every thought and action only occurs because of his "say so". To explain this point:
a) If freewill does not exist then men do not make choices. God exists and is the only being with sovereignty to override choices. Therefore God exists and makes the choices for men. This proves point 2.

3) There is evil in the world because choices are made which produce evil.

4) Conclusion: IF freewill does not exist then men do not choose to make evil in the world, God chooses to make evil in the world.

This arguement, that freewill does not exist, is obviously wrong because God cannot do, make or create evil.

The only solid way to refute this is to say that God is evil. But be wary if you argue down this path, it's a dangerous one.

The only solid way to refute this is to say that God is evil. But be wary if you argue down this path, it's a dangerous one.[/quote] your right it is dangerous, in which case I think you give some good advise ( awesome quote for athieism by the way)....
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

quote="Khisanthax"]I love freewill!

Quote: › 1.) God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.

Does this mean that God knows an absolute future? Is that what you are trying to say?

God being Omni-everything, not constrained to the speed of light or time, seems naturaly he would know the future

Quote: › 2.) Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.

This is true.

Quote: › 3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.

This is true except for the concept of the "unchanging plan" as mentioned in number one.

Quote: › 4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.

Once again, this would be true if everything above is true, but the break occurs in point number one

Quote: › 5.) Free-will doesn't exist.

Obviously the conclusion is false becase of false premises.

Very very briefly, just to start, I'll demonstrate how freewill exists and how God doesn't interfere.

1) There are things that God cannot do. The bible teaches us this. God is truth, so he cannot lie. God is holy therefore he cannot sin, do wrong, or evil.

Isaiah 45:7 says "I make peace and create evil."

euteronomy 28:20 "The LORD himself will send against you curses, confusion, and disillusionment in everything you do, until at last you are completely destroyed for doing evil and forsaking me.

"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

2) If free will does not exist, then God does everything actively. Every thought and action only occurs because of his "say so". To explain this point:
a) If freewill does not exist then men do not make choices. God exists and is the only being with sovereignty to override choices. Therefore God exists and makes the choices for men. This proves point 2.

3) There is evil in the world because choices are made which produce evil.

4) Conclusion: IF freewill does not exist then men do not choose to make evil in the world, God chooses to make evil in the world.

This arguement, that freewill does not exist, is obviously wrong because God cannot do, make or create evil.

The only solid way to refute this is to say that God is evil. But be wary if you argue down this path, it's a dangerous one.[/quote]

personal opinion is I thnk your right, we have freewill independant of God (ITIO) on the other hand It could also be viewed the other way... I dont know...I hate philosophy its so non-physical and abstract

personally, if i can speak up real quickly....

about free will --- God CAN take it away
did you read that? He CAN CAN CAN CAN CAN!
it's just a matter of He WON'T

about sin --- God CAN sin
see that? CAN CAN CAN CAN CAN!
it's just a matter of He WON'T

now, about evil...
first we need to decide what evil is
the normal response says what evil ISN'T "evil isn't good"
as if that isn't obvious lol

well, to define evil, let's look at other things...i'm going to play with science for a minute
and first i am going to define light.
Light is a form of energy which is visible to the human eye.
Now, I am going to define dark.
Dark is the absence of light.
Now, I am going to define heat
Heat is a form of energy...of moving molecules.
Now, I am going to define cold
Cold is the absence of heat.
Now, I am going to define good, namely, the supreme good.
God is Good.
Now, I am going to define evil.
Evil is the absence of good.

The Bible says that God made man in His IMAGE,not that He made us Him. In other words, we are not exactly like God. Since GOOD is God, we are not exactly like Good either. We have some absence of good, or evil, among us, as does the rest of this world.

Basically, evil wasn't "created" at all, cause in reality "evil" does not exist. It is merely a measure of lack of good. now...about some quotes...

1.) God has an unchangable plan for everything past, present & future.

my reply: what makes you think this plan is "unchangable?" Personally, I believe God allows for some degree of randomness in this world. For example, if I drive the wrong way down the highway, and I get in a collision and die, that doesn't mean it's God's plan...that means that I was being stupid. God has a plan yes, but that plan isn't based on a lack of free will, it's based on God's plan working around his knowledge ahead of time of what He knows that WE WANT to do.

2.) Everything that occurs past, present, and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.

my reply: that is true. God works EVERYTHING into His plan.

3.) Thoughts and actions occur and are a part of God's unchanging plan.

my reply: except for assuming God's plan is "uncahnging" that is true

4.) Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.

my reply: that is wrong. God doesn't plan our thoughts and actions ahead of time, that's our choice. God's plan is merely based on the choices that He KNOWS we'll make. Just cause He knows what we'll do doesn't mean He makes us do it.

5.) Free will doesn't exist

my reply: that is completely wrong.

now, in reply to other people's coments

1.) There are things that God cannot do. The Bible teaches us this. God is truth, so he cannot lie. God is holy therefore he cannot sin, do wrong, or evil.

my reply: God can do whatever God wants. This is a misunderstanding between capability and will. Just cause God doesn't do something doesn't mean He can't, it merely means He doesn't want to. God is truth, so He doesn't want to lie, so He doesn't. God is holy, so He doesn't want to sin, so He doesn't.

well, that was all my problems so far with this post...i'll be back later, i gotta go catch a Bible study that i'm now running late for. God bless y'all
peace


--- Josh

By giving us free will God created the possibility of evil, evil only became a reality when the first sin was commited...by an independant act of free will. Evil being rebelion against God (free will in oposition to God's will). So, doesn't the existance of evil prove that free will exists? In other words, if God is good (whether by choice, by nature or both) then evil can only come into existance if someone other than God wills to actualize it.

Some side notes:
Perhaps the following illustration makes the free will concept itself easier to fathom:
You stand before a gate with a sign above it that says "enter if you will", you choose to walk through, then look back to see another sign on the other side of the gate. It reads "I knew you would".
So does the fact that God knew which choice you were going to make in any way interfere with or influence your choice? Does this mean that God can have an unchangeable plan as described in reusables point 1, but that it's based on His foreknowledge of our choices rather than God having made them Himself?
Perhaps we are sometimes confused with the idea of time itself, after studying history and looking at timelines we might make the mistake of thinking of God as someone with an infinite amount of time on His hands. God doesn't have lots of time, He is outside of (transends) it. For God past present and future are simultaneous, like viewing a parade from a helecopter He see's the beginning, middle and end at the same time. While He can choose to take action in any part of it this does not mean He deliberately controls every aspect of it.
This explains why some people don't get saved, He will not violate our sovereignty. He doesn't send any one to Hell (eternal separation from Him), people go there because they choose not to go to heaven (eternity in His presence).

This topic is so incredibly interesting, I can't believe it is barely more than 1% of the size of the topic "Are Catholics Christian?".

Let's look at one of the few pieces of actual logic proposed so far:

Khisanthax argues that "IF freewill does not exist then men do not choose to make evil in the world, God chooses to make evil in the world." But since God cannot choose to make evil free will must exist.

The first part of his statement is based upon his earlier premise that "If freewill does not exist then men do not make choices."

Well, this is very interesting. And if we were to ask Khisanthax to kindly give us his definition of what a "choice" is, I'm sure he would end up saying that, among other things, it is made "freely", that is, not coerced ¹ . A decision made under coercion is not a choice, he would say, but one made freely is indeed a choice. But this definition presupposed the existence of free will. How else could this choice be made "freely"? And so to say that "If freewill does not exist then men do not make choices." when in fact the concept of choice presupposes the existence of free will begs the question "Does free will exist?".

Since that premise essentially "begs the question", it is invalid in this argument. And therefore, the conclusion (above) which depends on that premise likewise becomes invalidated.

One may easily suggest that a "choice" is the resulting decision necessitated by the chooser's perception that the chosen option would most likely produce the outcome most fulfilling of the chooser's current desires. And the premise is that the chooser always chooses what he perceives as this most fulfilling outcome.

There is much more to be said about this issue.


Arythmael

1. Khisanthax, I know I'm putting words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong, and we can go from there.

consider this -- that maybe the real difficulty between the omniscience of God and free-will is simply our perspective. We say 'God knows what WILL happen', but , if you accept that God is transcendent of time, then the concept of 'Will' doesn't apply... All is 'present' to Him.

I think God knows us much better than we know ourselves.. Our 'free will' is constrained by our desires/motives/likes/etc.. If I set a plate of food and a plate of 'garbage' in front of you, you have a choice as to which you will eat. But, I know (with some degree of certainty) what you will select. Does my 'knowing' negate your 'free will' in choosing? No. IF you were able to go against all your built-in biases/taboos/etc., you could make the other choice. God, knowing you much better than I could possibly know, would also know whether you could 'rise above' your normal choice.

In a sense, God has absolute knowledge of our choice, and yet we make a 'real choice'.

JoatMon wrote (View Post): › consider this -- that maybe the real difficulty between the omniscience of God and free-will is simply our perspective. We say 'God knows what WILL happen', but , if you accept that God is transcendent of time, then the concept of 'Will' doesn't apply... All is 'present' to Him. I think God knows us much better than we know ourselves.. Our 'free will' is constrained by our desires/motives/likes/etc.. If I set a plate of food and a plate of 'garbage' in front of you, you have a choice as to which you will eat. But, I know (with some degree of certainty) what you will select. Does my 'knowing' negate your 'free will' in choosing? No. IF you were able to go against all your built-in biases/taboos/etc., you could make the other choice. God, knowing you much better than I could possibly know, would also know whether you could 'rise above' your normal choice. In a sense, God has absolute knowledge of our choice, and yet we make a 'real choice'.

So let's relate this directly to the topic question.

You seem to be indicating that "free will" does exist. Yet you also attribute the choices which we make with this "free will" to "biases", "taboos", and so on. This presents the problem of infinite regression. If the only possibilities for explaining the cause behind our choices are (1) predetermination and (2) a set of character traits -- and you say (1) is out -- then as we begin asking ourselves where these character traits come from, you are forced to either say that they were predetermined (which you can't) or that we somehow chose them.

But if we choose our character traits, like our "biases" and "taboos", then the question comes up again: surely we don't choose biases and taboos arbitrarily, out of sheer randomness; why then would we choose some and not others? We will likely continue this way until we come to the point of saying that it is simply our "nature" to choose one thing over the other. But then, did we choose that nature or was it determined for us?

Do you see the philosophical problem?

I think the "real difficulty" may lie in the definition of "free will" in the first place.


Arythmael

Anonymous wrote (View Post): › By giving us free will God created the possibility of evil, evil only became a reality when the first sin was commited...by an independant act of free will. Evil being rebelion against God (free will in oposition to God's will). So, doesn't the existance of evil prove that free will exists? In other words, if God is good (whether by choice, by nature or both) then evil can only come into existance if someone other than God wills to actualize it. Some side notes: Perhaps the following illustration makes the free will concept itself easier to fathom: You stand before a gate with a sign above it that says "enter if you will", you choose to walk through, then look back to see another sign on the other side of the gate. It reads "I knew you would".

This is total rubbish.....

Did God put that sign up after he went through the gate or before he did?

Because if he put it there before the person went in, then he (GOD) obviuosly knew he was going to walk through. That doesnt leave the option of the person walkign through to choose not to walk through since god would have known not to put the sign there in the first place.

In addition if GOD put tthe sign there after the person walked through then that obviuosly shows that he isnt omipotent.


RUBBISH LADDY....TOTAL RUBBISH

Rubbish, huh?

Let me get this straight.

Assume that you think about buying a candy bar, and you're debating between snickers and milky way. Assume you like both, but you decide on snickers.

Now, assume that I saw you choose snickers...and 3 weeks later I created a time machine. Now, I go back in time 4 weeks. Now, this is a week before you debated over the candy bar...and the fact that you're debating shows that you have a choice as to what you will get.

However, I've seen this before, so I already know that you are going to choose snickers. Does this mean you had no choice because I knew what your choice would be?

No! The idea of saying that you had no choice like that is illogical.

I believe that Poet is correct about LaDaCrIs' argument being illogical.

The bad reasoning comes here: "That doesn't leave the option of the person walking through to choose not to walk through since god would have known not to put the sign there in the first place."

This assumes that the choice was an inescapable result of some set of causes which preceeded it, and that God is able to know what the choice would be because He sees those causes and then reasons or calculates the outcome ahead of time. So LaDaCrIs' argument follows that when God puts the sign up, we know that those set of causes must exist and will inevitably lead the person to make the choice which was calculated by God and written up on the sign.

But this argument presupposes that the choice was indeed an inescapable result of some set of causes which preceeded it, which is tantamount to presupposing that free will does not exist (if you disagree, than this shows me that our definition of free will is the problem).

Poet's argument does not make this presupposition, and still manages to adequately show the possibility of God being able to know the outcome (because He exists outside of time, yet sees all of time), and at the same time does not violate our free will -- if it exists.

The question still remains: Does it exist? Yet before we can attempt to answer that question we must first define what we mean by free will in the first place, and agree on that definition.


Arythmael

Arythmael said "The question still remains: Does it exist? Yet before we can attempt to answer that question we must first define what we mean by free will in the first place, and agree on that definition. "

I agree we have not properly defined free will. That is the first step in answering the question of it's existence. I would like to note that Martin Luthers writings on this topic, "The Bondage of the Will", is the best out there.

Free will exists but in a limited form, if we are talking about ultimate free will, well then it doesn't exisit. Free will exists in a limited form in the sense that our descions are real, they do matter, they do have effects, but they are not unkown by God, nor are they ultimately free from God. Man like all of Gods creation is dependant upon God for "life and breath and everything else." This is especially true in slavation, man is "dead in his trespasses and sin" Paul says it best here, dead or slaves to sin, incapable of using our "free will" to make a choice toward God for goodness sake. We are completely and totally responsible for our sin and incapable of turning to God unless he first changes the heart "takes out the heart of stone and puts in the heart of flesh", a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit. However, God by ordaining sin or even causing evil (as one person put it) does not in make God sinful or evil. God is not limit or restrained to same rules or commands that he lays down for his creatures. The bible teaches that he is explicitly sovereign he rules the affairs of men "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases." So does God really ordain sin, well he sent an evil spirit to torment Saul, he allowed Satan to destroy Jobs life, he wiped out the first born as the 10th plaque; he wiped out the entire world with a flood, he even killed his own son (which is the very grounds of our hope) all which would be called or considered sin or evil in the sight of man, yet God sovereignly stands behinnd it all and has a purpose for it all. Is God bound in anyway by man's free will? He can not be it is impossible, he would cease to God. We are not walking robots or puppets on a string, however we are at all times under his sovereign will and the events of history or the unfolding of history is revealing Gods predetermined plan to us. These are often two categories that don't compute, but are both taught in scripture.

I hope that helps...

"God?s predetermination of second causes is that effectual working of his, according to his eternal purpose, whereby though some agents, as the wills of men, are causes most free and indefinite, or unlimited lords of their own actions, in respect of their internal principle of operation (that is, their own nature), [they] are yet all, in respect of his decree, and by his powerful working, determined to this or that effect in particular; not that they are compelled to do this, or hindered from doing that, but are inclined and disposed to do this or that, according to their proper manner of working, that is, most freely" - John Owen

Is there such a thing as free will?

If everything is predestined and we have no free will, than why would saintly people bother to preach to us?
Obviously, men have free will (to some extend).

We are not free to act but we do have freedom in choosing our desires. According to our previous activities a whole range of desires is presented before us in the form of thoughts. Out of all these desires we are free to choose on which ones we will contemplate upon, as we like. While contemplating our desires. they will become manifested as actions, in due course of time. These actions are forced upon us by God's material energy. As soon as we come to the point of action, there is no way back. Our free will does not extend that far. We have no direct controle over our actions but we have indirect controle over them by choosing proper thoughts. Therefore, controling the mind is very important, that's where it all begins. The best way to controle the mind is to remember God, His devotees, His activities, etc.

Free will does exsist as I stated, but not in an ultimate form. I think we are saying the same thing only my way of saying it is a lot less confusing than yours.

Yes, we have free will but it is not ultimate, God is not limited by our free will, nor did he look to future to see how we would choose and then plan accordingly. He is sovereign, ultimately sovereign, meaning he can do as he wishes with whom he wishes at any point in time, "for from Him, and thru Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory."
So why do we teach, why do we evangelize, why am I even responding to your reply? Because God uses his people as the medium or means to accomplish his will or plan. We are the "tool in His hand" or as Paul puts, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth". Read Romans 9:10-24, and then Romans 10, for the biblical account of free will or ultimate svereignty (in a literal translation please). http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&version=31

The text is clear, "it depends not on human will or exersion but on God". I'm not saying its easy to understand, but it is clearly taught in scripture... Man is solely responsible for sin, our descions do matter, and God is absolutley sovereign and has predestined all things that come to pass, how is that for mind boggling? read Ephesians 1: 3-6 & Romans 8:28-30 for further study.