If heaven is a physical place then I could travel there right now if I had a space ship?

I believe they are physical places, but to travel to hell methinks you can only get there by the leave of The Father or The Son.

UUUUUUMMMMMM Question?

Why in the world would one willingle got to hell even for just a look

Good Question. Khis, care to answer that one?

Personally, I DON'T want to see hell...
I want to be home with my Father in Heaven with my family

I tend to view heaven and hell as actual phical places but just not here on earth. Rather to me at least they are other dimentions and that the lake of fire as depicted in the book of revulations is just the door or the gateway to hell.

The same with heaven allthough to get there you need to be saved and when you die you are guided by eather an anger (gabreal) ro even just the spirt through the doorway and unto the sea of galss and the pirl gates

Has anyone ever realised that the bible says that when Jesus returns we will rise up to meet Him in the sky, but the DEAD in Christ shall rise first.

Does that not signify that the people are not already in Heaven nor Hell.

And what about when Jesus was crucified? The 'graves' were opened and some of the saints came back to life.

Or what about Revelation where it says that the oceans will give up their dead, as well as the Grave and Sheol. It is only after the Day of Judgement that people will be thrown into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone along with the Devil, Hades and Death itself. Would this then not be "Hell".

Also, have any of you realised that the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God will be down here, on the new Earth. It decends from Heaven, so it can't be up there; heaven was destroyed anyway. The Kingdom will be on the Earth because all the nations of the Earth shall come unto the New Jerusalem. It would be a bit hard for them to do so if the Kingdom of God was up in "Heaven".

Also, Jesus Christ is promised to return to Earth and take up the Throne of his father David. How could He do that in Heaven as the throne is that of an Earthly nation. There are clear scriptures that separate this modern Israel from the Church. Also, the nation of Israel was promised to last forever on the Earth. It would be a bit hard to last forever if we all went away to Heaven.

There have only been a few people whom God decided to take up into Heaven (his dwelling place) and not seen death. These include Elijah and Enoch. Moses was counted a 'friend of God' and yet he died and was buried in a hidden grave.

Besides, if people went to Heaven or Hell before the Day of Judgement why would there be one? Everyone would have already been judged.

As to the reference to the Abraham the father of Israel you are missing a few facts. Abraham is the father of the Arabic people also!! This was through Sarah's handmaiden Hagar who gave birth to Ishmael.
Jacob (Israel) was the father of Israel. Abraham was his grandfather. There were a few other relatives that were not Israel and Abraham was 'father' to.

As to heaven and hell. What does it matter. We are ambassadors for Christ in THIS world. We live in THIS world. We will most probably all die and 'sleep' in THIS world. Why worry about such a thing. Have faith in God, do what He commands you to do for THIS world and let Him worry about Heaven and Hell.

PS. Sorry about the lack of scripture references. I don't have the time to look them all up. They are in the Bible though, that I am assured of. I hope you can look them up for yourself.

Soldier of YAH

Soldier of YAH wrote (View Post): › Has anyone ever realized that the bible says that when Jesus returns we will rise up to meet Him in the sky, but the DEAD in Christ shall rise first. Does that not signify that the people are not already in Heaven nor Hell.

It is important for us to always consider the whole of God's Word, which of course can be a daunting task considering the vastness of The Bible. Often however, we can consider just a few verses that can give clarity to our questions.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise,"

Now I know what the reaction to this verse will be by some. That this verse refers to a section of Hades where the righteous were to be held until the resurrection. However, after Jesus death, the resurrection had come to them. Remember, "he lead captives in His train."

2 Cor 5:8 To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Scripture clearly teaches us that the righteous dead are in the presence of God. The resurrection and transfiguration of their bodies will be a separate future event.

Khis also brought up an interesting question. If Heaven is a physical place and one has a rocket ship, could they travel there?

Well, I don't know that a man-made space craft would have the ability to actually travel to Heaven. However, it is clear that it is a place that one is able to get to with the assistance of God.

Enoch and Elijah are both currently in Heaven and both went there with PHYSICAL bodies. As we know, Elijah was taken up by some kind of Heavenly craft, a chariot of fire.

Now consider 2 Cor 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven . Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Not only do we have the scriptural account of this man being "caught up to Heaven", but there are others living today who speak about very similar experiences. Jesse Duplantis is one of them. Now, whatever your "opinion" may be about this man and his ministry unto The Lord, there is fruit on his tree (so to speak). Jesse gave his full testimony of the experience and I have heard it. It bore witness within my spirit as the truth. For anyone who is interested PM me and I will send you the information on how to attain the tape.

Ah but there you go, "Paradise", which you just wonderfully quoted to me, does not directly quote to 'Heaven' which you infer it to be. 'Paradise' also translates to 'garden' as well. Does that mean Jesus would take the sinner on a stroll through the Garden of Eden on His way to Heaven??

But also, Jesus did not go to Heaven on that day. How could the sinner, even if he did go to Heaven, meet Jesus there if Jesus was in the 'belly of the Earth'. Jesus went down into the grave - Death - so that he may conquer it for the following believers (us). Death is not Heaven. That just doesn't quite make sense to me. First, by you, He dies and goes DOWN to heaven, and then, 40 days later, lives and goes UP to heaven. I am a little confused with that.

But another burr on you track record. Can you please stop misquoting scriptures? PLEASE??? It's bad enough people have to go and take out chunks of the Bible, or add books in, without you missrepresenting what the scriptures say.

Your 2 Corinthians 5:8 says this:
"We are confident, yes, well pleased RATHER to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."
They are not saying that IF you are absent from the body, the only place to go would be the presence of the Lord. They are saying that those Christians would RATHER be dead AND be with the Lord. It is a wishful thought and is represented as such. Would't you like to be in the Presence of our Lord God Almighty???

As to my 'opinions', they are mearly there to offer an easy read of what the scriptures say. You can go and look them up for yourself and make sure that you read ALL of the scriptures and read them in CONTEXT. I think people would rather read by summary and look up the few scriptures I quoted. It's much easier going.

And about context, for your quote from 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, ever considered telling people about verse 1????
"It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: ..." (2 Corinthians 12:1)
Your statement was a vision or revelation given to Paul. As seen by the semi-colon at the end of verse one, the subsequent verses, your 2-4, were the description and details for verse 1. You want to base your reality on a vision. Fine by me, just leave everyone else's out of it.

As to your people who have had that modern day experience - how could they tell you about it if they are up in heaven? The only place in the scriptures where someone who had been taken up into heaven had come down was with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. The 'Likeness' of Elijah was seen by the disciples to be talking to Jesus. It was not exactly Elijah himself.
<Opinion> "Could it not have been like a modern day holographic projector????" </Opinion>

Even if these modern day occurances happened, how come these people are back here on Earth again. Besides being destroyed by looking at God's face and glory, they would have not wanted to come back down here to live. It seems to be a far-fetched version of the "Aliens kidnapped me" stories that are so wonderfully told by people with mental problems or bad drinking or drug habits.

And you base your 'Opinion' on that????


Try reading Ephesians 5:14 - "Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light."

or Revelation 20:11-15 - "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things that were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone who was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Didn't you know that God is a spirit (John 4:24). And therefore His dwelling place, Heaven, must be spiritual. How could they take a physical journey into a place that is spiritual. That just dosn't go. As to Enoch and Elijah GOING to heaven in physical form - that doesn't mean that they arrived there in physical form. There were not allowed to see death - that doesn't mean that they were't changed from physical to spiritual like we will when the Lord returns. No body knows their form once they reached heaven, we just know that they left in a physical form by a spiritual method: Enoch by a whirlwind and Elijah by a chariot of fire.

Please next time you try to refute me, please have a substantial argument on hand. It is very annoying pointing out people's mistakes.

The God of peace be with you always.

Soldier of YAH

Soldier -

It almost seems as if you want to argue instead of rightly divide scripture.
It would be nice if you would carefully read posts before you try and rip them apart.

Here is the complete Biblical usage for paradise in the Greek:

paradeisos {par-ad'-i-sos}

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters

2) a garden, pleasure ground

a) grove, park

3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise

4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

5) heaven

It really doesn't matter if the text is referring to Heaven above or the portion of Hades reserved for the righteous because (as pointed out in the original post to which you replied) the Bible tells us that Jesus "led captives in His train." ( Ps 68:18; Eph4:8 )

This means that when Jesus left Hades, those righteous left with Him. His resurrection was a resurrection for them all. Remember the day He died... graves were opened and sainted dead walked the Earth? (Matt 27:52&53)

If you would read again the post, you would see that there is no argument against what I said concerning 2Cor 5:8. You waste many words. In no way did I imply that the verse did not convey the believer's wish. However, their WISH REVEALS their BELIEF. This is supported also with Paul's statement in Phil 1:23.

You say that I have burs in my record and that I misquote scripture?
I disagree. It seems to me brother, as if the "bur" may be your own.
I really don't appreciate being accused of misrepresenting scripture. All scriptures I quote are exactly as they exist in the NIV translation and are not taken out of context. So please, don't accuse me of such a thing without an argument that holds water.

Also, in 2Cor 12:2-4; the fact still remains that Paul is speaking of someone who was translated (or in KJV, caught up) to Heaven. If this man's experience Paul shares was a "vision", Paul would have stated so. The very fact that Paul himself says, "whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know", stands to reason that it is possible and plausible it could have been in the body.
Paul says it, so I ask, "Do you or I know better than Paul?"
It seems as if you doubt the very word of Paul as he shares what he heard with his own ears.

As far as people with modern day testimonies of Heavenly encounters... in the words of my brother the Apostle Paul, I also say, "I do not know."
However, neither do you. It may have been like a holographic as you suggest but that is doubtful. Scripture supports physical encounters with The Lord, The Angel of The Lord and angelic beings. Also... I don't think that Enoch or Elijah were taken up by a holographic. Regardless of the fact that they did not return (atleast yet) they are still examples of SPIRITUAL things existing with the PHYSICAL.

Yes, God is a Spirit but He also obviously has a physical body. Eden was a physical place (and perhaps still exists in a spiritual plane) and Adam and Eve were physical beings. God came and walked with them in the garden.

Moses was on a physical mountain and saw the backside of God as He passed.

And... on a side note... yes God's Word says that no man shall see Him and live. However... it also says that He spoke with Moses face to face.

This is another subject all together... but worth the thought.

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration by God, and as such is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the person of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16)

Who said there was a portion of Hades reserved for the righteous. For the Bible says that on the day of Judgement that Hades will give up the dead in it for judgement.(Revelation 20:13) How could people be grouped by their level of righteousness if they are not judged?? Why would there be a day of judgement if they are already judged?

I will admit that I do not now EXACTLY what happened that day, because nobody living can. To say so would be lying.

As to Moses talking to God face to face, why did Moses ask to look upon God and God answered that He would not show His face else Moses would die. Moses never saw God's face. Moses speaking 'face to face' with God could also mean that Moses spoke in person with God and not through an intercessory medium like an angel. It does not always mean 'looking them in the face'. And even from looking at the back of the Lord's form AND his Glory, Moses' face shone so bright he had to wear a veil. It does not say that God had a PHYSICAL form, just a visible one. It is God's raw Glory that helped transform Moses' face.

Many people throughout the Bible, including Balaam's donkey, saw an Angel of God through whom God spoke. These are quite often referenced as "the Lord spoke to me", even though it was the Angel speaking. These are messengers of God and are sometimes seen as beings of light, sometimes as men apparrelled in white, sometime in disguise. It does not say that they had a physcal form, it just says that people saw one.
Many prophets have prayed to have people's eyes 'opened' so that they may see His angels. Like Elijah's servant who saw the armies of chariot surrounding the city of their abode. Nobody else saw them except Elijah. That would mean the those people were allowed to see the SPIRITUAL form of the chariots. Not necessarily that those chariots had a physical form.
Elisha saw Elijah get taken to heaven (God's spiritual abode) in a chariot of fire. Maybe this is what Spiritual Form of the chariot that Elisha was allowed to see, not its physical form.

As to your paradise. Could Jesus have also meant that on that day the sinner would see him in the Grave?? We don't know, but it is a far greater possibliliy than heaven as Jesus didn't go up there until 43 days later.

As to your referenced to 2 Corinthians 5:8 as their wishes revealing their beliefs. You are wrong. A wish is an 'expression of a futil hope or a dream known to have little chance of occurring' and a belief is 'a basis of a person's thinking, controlling their actions and their thoughts; a trust, a reliance on, and an obedience to the object of the belief'. One is a hope, one is a definite. The next two verses, remembering CONTEXT, say:
"Therefore we make it our goal, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing Him. For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may recieve the things done in the body, according to what they had done, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:9-10)

Your 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is telling that Pauls HEARD of such an event, which He does not know the details to, where on two separate occasions, people were caught up in a vision or revelation of the Lord which showed them 'the third heaven' and 'Paradise'. He does not say that the person actually went there, in fact he says he DOESN"T KNOW. He is telling a story of some visions he was told of.

He is stating that the disciples would be pleased to be absent from this life, and to be present with the Lord, either on or after the day of judgement. They are mearly expressing their desire for the Lord to return soon, and after the 1000 year reign, be with the rest of humanity on the day of judgement to show God all the good they had done. There is no reference to the IMMEDIATE 'present with the Lord' after the absence from the body. Just an EVENTUAL presence with the Lord, which we all hope for.

Why does the Bible emphasis the Spiritual if the physical is all we need. For surely if God had a physical form, it would be perfect, and as such would have no need to change us into perfect spiritual beings. Just perfect physical beings.

I do not divide the scripture, because that is making it say what I want to say. I say ALL of the scripture, because ALL of it is relevant, and ALL of it says the same thing. I waste no time, breath or effort in correcting you by the scriptures, for that is what I must do and it not wasted. Even if the NIV translates differently, the basis is still correct. And it is the basis with which you mainly err. You cannot pick one sentence to support an issue without looking at the context. It may have no connection to what you make it to be.

My translation of Ephesians 4:8 and its equivalent Psalm says this:
"Therefore He says: "When He acended on High, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men."

My version says that He led captivity ITSELF captive. Not the people captive, nor to his 'train'. I do not know why your bible says 'train' for back then a train denoted: a long line of transporting vehicles of one group, ie a merchant's train of camels; or a long length of material forming part of an apparrel. Neither of which I am sure Jesus would take captivity to.

"For God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." (John 4:24)

"Unless you are born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they shall be the adopted children and heirs of God." (Romans 8:14)

"Be saved from this perverse generation." (Acts 2:40)

"Repent, and let every one of you be baptised (GR: 'baptizo' - 'fully immersed' in water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisison of sin; and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:3

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any one has not the Spirit of Christ, they are none of His." (Romans 8:9)

"Behold, I will tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the speed of a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound at the Lord's return, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

"But we all, with an open face, beholding as if in a mirror the Glory of the Lord, are being transformed into that self-same image form glory unto glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Corinthians 3:1

"Walk by faith, not by sight." (1 Corinthians 5:7)

"For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what they have done, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Galatians 5:25)

"And this is the promise He has promised us - eternal life." (1 John 2:25)

"Blessed and holy is the person who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

We know that that sinner saw Jesus that day (or time) in Paradise. Exactly what the true meaning of that paradise is is unknown, as it can't be heaven, because 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 says that the two are separate, and Jesus certainly didn't go there when He died. As to whether people have or have not been to 'heaven' and returned is undecicive as it has happened to neither of us.

But as to having a power by the Spirit, here and now, speaking in tongues and working mighty miracles, that I know for sure exists. I have this self-same ressurecting power of Christ, the same Spirit that made the prophets prophesy, that formed the world - I have it. And I am not the only one. Everyone who is of an age of understanding in my church has this self-same power, with the self-same evidence from the self-same spirit that occured on the Day of Pentecost just under 2000 years ago.
That I am assured of.

As to heaven and hell, no one truly knows. But this debate makes us search through the scriptures and to look at them from yet another perspective. It makes us read not what we want to read, but what it really says. Thankyou for keeping this debate lively, it is good for the understanding of knowledge.

Once again, the grace, power and truth of God be with you,

Soldier of YAH

I'm sorry to say but looking back through the posts in this topic I came across Emerald who posted the opinion she had about hell. I would have to agree with her after much research. I believe the Christian church has become so dogmatic. You can truly compare todays Christian church with the Jewish church in Christ's day. They too got very dogmatic. They were so dogmatic that the truth had become completely distorted. Yet they like todays Christians beleived in what they were doing at the time. So much so that they had Jesus put to death. Why did they crucify him? Because he was breaking their law. Was he beaking their law? Yes, in their eyes he was. But what is sad is that they were not following God's law. They were following a distorted version of God's law. They were following a very close pattern of God's law but in was an illusion. They were following Satan. Jesus told them there were not of his Father but Their Father Satan. Satan has done the same to the Christian church today. The bible says the church will become corrupt in the last days. Well, you are all living in it. Tell me how this cannot happen today. Because you believe in God? Do you really think Satan cannot infiltrate the Christian faith? You are very decieved then. The Christian church is ruled by new Pharisees. Who preach a close pattern of what is doctine but no less of Satan as the pattern the Pharisees followed. Most will not even recognize Christ when he does come.

Not everyone who says to Me, ?Lord, Lord,? shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ?Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?? And then I will declare to them, ?I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!??

Matthew 7:21-23, NKJV

The path to heaven is narrow. You just have no idea how narrow it is. I tell you the dogmatic preachers who yell in your face that they alone know what the scripture reads most are not on that path. Most think they are. They stand at the front of the church preaching about hell. They will yell at you if you question the justice of hell. They will get angry when you question their explanation of scripture. Sound familiar? Sounds like the Pharisees to me. They will preach hell fire and damnation then turn and speak of a God of Unconditional Love. These preachers worship a false idol. The only God they worship is themselves. They are full of pride. You cannot serve to masters. Many even believe they are the one who got the person saved instead of God. Like God needs any of their effort. The Pharisees are here today with their twisted scripture taking as many people down to "their hell" as possible. Do not rely completely on your Preacher. Rely on God. Go into your room and pray and ask for truth. Ask for a presonal relationship with God. Seek him with all your heart and all your soul. You will find him. He will show you the truth. Just like God made the Sabbath for man not the man for the Sabbath. He also made the Bible for man not man for the Bible. The preachers will jump to the Bible like the book is God himself. That appears to be worshipping the Bible to me. Use common sense people. Don't wonder around like lost Sheep because the Wolf will get you. Don't discount the Bible because the answers are there. But you have to cast away all the dogma instilled in you from birth. Read it like you read it your first time. Without opinion and prejudice and the answers will come. Let God guide your heart to what is right.

I'm sorry to say but looking back through the posts in this topic I came across Emerald who posted the opinion she had about hell. I would have to agree with her after much research. I believe the Christian church has become so dogmatic. You can truly compare today?s Christian church with the Jewish church in Christ's day. They too got very dogmatic. They were so dogmatic that the truth had become completely distorted. Yet they like today?s Christians believed in what they were doing at the time. So much so that they had Jesus put to death. Why did they crucify him? Because he was breaking their law. Was he breaking their law? Yes, in their eyes he was. But what is sad is that they were not following God's law. They were following a distorted version of God's law. They were following a very close pattern of God's law but in was an illusion. They were following Satan. Jesus told them there were not of his Father but Their Father Satan. Satan has done the same to the Christian church today. The bible says the church will become corrupt in the last days. Well, you are all living in it. Tell me how this cannot happen today. Because you believe in God? Do you really think Satan cannot infiltrate the Christian faith? You are very deceived then. The Christian church is ruled by new Pharisees. Who preach a close pattern of what is doctrine but no less of Satan as the pattern the Pharisees followed. Most will not even recognize Christ when he does come.

Not everyone who says to Me, ?Lord, Lord,? shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ?Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?? And then I will declare to them, ?I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!??

Matthew 7:21-23, NKJV

The path to heaven is narrow. You just have no idea how narrow it is. I tell you the dogmatic preachers who yell in your face that they alone know what the scripture reads most are not on that path. Most think they are. They stand at the front of the church preaching about hell. They will yell at you if you question the justice of hell. They will get angry when you question their explanation of scripture. Sound familiar? Sounds like the Pharisees to me. They will preach hell fire and damnation then turn and speak of a God of Unconditional Love. These preachers worship a false idol. The only God they worship is themselves. They are full of pride. You cannot serve to masters. Many even believe they are the one who got the person saved instead of God. Like God needs any of their effort. The Pharisees are here today with their twisted scripture taking as many people down to "their hell" as possible. Do not rely completely on your Preacher. Rely on God. Go into your room and pray and ask for truth. Ask for a personal relationship with God. Seek him with all your heart and all your soul. You will find him. He will show you the truth. Just like God made the Sabbath for man not the man for the Sabbath. He also made the Bible for man not man for the Bible. The preachers will jump to the Bible like the book is God himself. That appears to be worshipping the Bible to me. Use common sense people. Don't wonder around like lost Sheep because the Wolf will get you. Don't discount the Bible because the answers are there. But you have to cast away all the dogma instilled in you from birth. Read it like you read it your first time. Without opinion and prejudice and the answers will come. Let God guide your heart to what is right.

Whats youre point Ski. Are you acuseing everylast one of us of being Heritics, if so you better bring some reall good evidence becouse one thing I cannot and will not stand for is unfoundend acustaions espicealy if they are pointed at me or at any of my friends right here.

Heaven and Hell are the most important topics that could possibly be discussed. We will enter one or the other for all eternity, and there is no absolute guarantee that it will be the Christian version of Heaven or Hell.

I correspond by e-mail with an intelligent and upright Sudanese man named Omar. He is a devout Muslim, just as I am a devout Christian. We enjoy discussing religion and other topics in a friendly manner, but there is one area where Omar has me beat by far. His conception of the afterlife is far more robust than mine. His descriptions of the Islamic Hell are frightening and extremely graphic, and he really makes me feel the heat when we discuss the topic.

I might start a new thread in which I explore the e-mails which Omar and I exchange from time to time. The members of this forum might find these e-mails very interesting and educational. And they may be worth thinking about, since Omar might just end up being right. I pray that he is not, but if he is, I have a terrible ordeal in store for me.