Hi Oxy,

I asked too many questions again? I get the hint and stop doing that. I will answer your questions and will not bother you any longer.
I can't get the information I am looking for anyway.

Quote: › Consider the opposite case, your own choice not to believe, did the Holy Spirit force you not to believe?

From my point of view I dared to start some critical thinking. The first doubts I tried to push away as "one should not question God," but it was like a dam breaking up. I can't say I experienced it as a choice: you don't get up one day and decide to work on how not to believe any longer: you just lose your trust in some views and gain trust in other views.
It's a bit as if a small kid looks through the keyhole and sees Santa taking his robe and beard off and he turns out to be uncle Benny. The kid did not chose to start disbelieving in Santa, it simply can't believe any longer from that day on.

You can't chose to believe or not to believe; it just doesn't work that way, you become convinced!

Like most theists I belonged to the main religion in the area I was born. I was raised to believe in the God my parents believed in. Had I grew up in India I probably would have been a Hindu, had I been born and raised in Iran I would have been Muslim.
Apparently your Holy Spirit prefers some nations in this world and rather avoids others.

Quote: › The Holy Spirit is prompting you again and again Harrie, what has been your response each time?

Is it? And how does that prompting manifest itself to me you think? Sorry to ask these questions, but I do that to be able to answer your question.

Quote: › You want to use science as a tool to find truth, perhaps that includes finding proof of God, or proof of no God, well I reckon you are using the wrong tool.

Just truth, if that is God then it is God, if it isn't God it isn't. I will admit that I hope there is no God of the OT for a great number of reasons we have discussed already, (slavery, position of women, position of gays, the killing of innocent people, cruel testing games, etc...) but I certainly would not resent a good God and an eternal existence.

Religion is for a great part out of the grasp of science because theists put it there; it's like scientifically proving there isn't a microscopic teapot somewhere in the tremendous universe and that is impossible. That does not mean that such a teapot therefor MUST exist. I can come up with millions of ideas science could never be able to check or test. The human imagination is limitless, but not all we imagine is real unfortunately. We might teach our children to believe that everything in the stories of Grimm or Andersen is true and they will no doubt take our word and teach it their children, but that does NOT make it true.

Quote: › Science may measure the material, physical realm but it is incapable of measuring the spiritual realm.

Although science can investigate religion in general, it will never able to prove anything about the existence of God. Indeed, you might wonder why.
But you don't: you have decided that any conflict between science and your religion is a shortcoming of the scientific tool. I am never that convinced of my knowledge about the reality around me: I sometimes change my point of view in the light of new facts.
And: if something can't be detected in any way, what can be the influence on the real world?
That is why science uses a placebo to test medicines; if people belief that something works, it will indeed work to some extent, but still has no real working substance in it. If then a medicine does not score any better than a placebo, why consider it effective?

Quote: › You say science cannot detect the spiritual realm therefore it does not exist. Is that the way "true" science works?

That is not how I think. If science has no reason to assume something, then there is no reason to assume its existence, it could still exist perhaps, but it's influence might be tiny or non-existent.
Sometimes scientific models predict something that hasn't been detected yet, but in that case the model has a reason to assume it. For example; when Mendeleev came up with his table of the elements, the logic of his model predicted several elements unknown to science at the time; they were indeed detected later on. But even this is not the case with God in science.
There is no reason whatsoever to assume the existence of an all powerful, all knowing creating Being. Human beings ling for eternal existence, but wanting it doesn't mean it must be true.

Quote: › Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (NIV Jn 14:6).

Yes, and all others must burn for eternity...

And that is the truth of an all good God...

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Yes, and all others must burn for eternity... And that is the truth of an all good God...

Harrie,

You seem to suggest that God is not fair, but the reality is that God owes us absolutely nothing. It is us who owe Him.

All through the post above you stand as the the central focus and arbiter of truth and all that is good. But the reality is that God is the arbiter of what is just, fair and good.

Hi Oxy,

Your posts become shorter and shorter and take a rather sharp turn...

Quote: › All through the post above you stand as the the central focus and arbiter of truth and all that is good. But the reality is that God is the arbiter of what is just, fair and good.

Well, for example: I detest slavery, I detest torturing and the killing of innocents, I detest torturing gays by not letting them live together like their hearts tell them, I detest discrimination of women. If someone does not believe in me and do not wish him to burn for eternity, not even my worst enemy.
To God all of that is fair and good and I am wrong to detest all those things: I should think slavery is acceptable, that the torturing and killing of innocents is OK as long as God decides it, I should work to stop gays from loving each other, I should consider woman to be of less value than men.

But I can't, for I would hate it to be a slave myself, so why should I condone slavery for others?
I would hate to be tortured and killed, so why accept it for others?
I am a 100% hetero sexual, it would sadden and frustrate me never to be able to touch the person I love, why condemn others to that cruel faith?
I am a man and wish to be on equal terms with females, why should I deny women the same?
I don't want to burn forever for not believing in something; I don't wish that for anybody on this planet.

If what I am feeling is wrong than I don't want to be right. In your view, I suppose I am on Satan's side now?

Hello Harrie,

It's shorter and shorter, but its to do with time availability and economy.

Anyway, all the above that you have listed are not of God. You have every right to detest them (though I do not know by what set of ethos you subscribe to) but why do you attach them as if God is the cause? By your words you have slurred the most Holy God with a hotchpotch of accusations it seems. Also I am not sure if you are directing this at Yahweh or Allah.

All those things are conceived by man not God.

Here is what God wants:
John 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (ESV)

A couple of evidence against the OP notions, from youtube:

allah
tollerance

Quote: › All those things are conceived by man not God.

I agree, but they are in the Bible and the Bible is perceived by many to be the inerrant Word of an almighty Deity.

Quote: › You have every right to detest them (though I do not know by what set of ethos you subscribe to)

My set of ethos is based on empathy (how would I feel about it) and being a social being like most fellow humans.

Quote: › but why do you attach them as if God is the cause?

I am quite amazed by this remark. To me it sounds as if Christians are quite free to interpret the Bible the way they like? Don't you as a Christian long to follow God?
Slavery: there are several verses in the Bible, setting rules and prices for slaves in the OT; I think we have discussed this before and came to the agreement that God is not against slavery. Anyway: you claim that God is against slavery? If God could outlaw gathering firewood on a Sabbath, why not clearly outlaw such a horrible crime as slavery?
Torture and killing of innocents: all-knowing God 'tested' Abraham by ordering his son to be sacrificed, God betrayed Job to His 'enemy" Satan just to prove a point to Satan. God hardened the heart of the pharaoh so He had an excuse to punish him AND all the oldest of Egyptians, slaves and animals who had nothing to do with any crimes of the pharaoh. How would you feel if your oldest child were killed for something your government did? Would that hurt you or not?
Homosexuality: the Bible is full of condemnations of a gay lifestyle you will no doubt be aware.
Rights of woman: no doubt you will be aware of those Biblical rules too, where women should shut up and obey men and are of less value than men.
Burning for not believing: isn't that a key factor in Christianity? You could claim that it is an unbelievers own fault for not believing, but didn't God create the rules?


I think those words simply reflect the society and culture of the time they were written; that is why you need to hammer them into today's views with quite some imagination. (Slavery isn't really bad because it wasn't based on racism towards blacks and perhaps the slaves were better off etc... All the innocent killed children go to heaven... )

Quote: › Also I am not sure if you are directing this at Yahweh or Allah.

They definitely are directed at the Yahweh version of the same God as I know that best, but the Allah version is not that much different from what I do know about it.

Quote: › A couple of evidence against the OP notions, from youtube

The first one: of-course many fundamental Muslims commit horrible crimes towards Christians, but during history, even up to today, quite some Christians were/are just as bad. (Inquisition, crusades, witch burning, Israel/Palestine situation, Guantanamo bay.) Perhaps they were not real Christians, but if that is true, why are those fundamentalists Muslims real Muslims? I know many Muslims to be very much upset and against intolerant behavior.
The second youtube link I don't understand, was it the correct link?


I think you forget that many Muslims are NOT fundamentalist nutcases, just like many Christians are not Fred Phelps nutcases (and most atheists are not like nutcase Stalin.) In strict Muslims nations you better blame the sick government I think...

Still, the main problem remains; I think there is no way one simply can chose to stop believing in one thing and start believing in another; exactly the same way as YOU are not capable of changing your religion at will. If you can't, why should Muslims be able to? Because your religion is different from theirs? But they consider their belief to be true because it is different from what they consider a fraud: Christianity.

And if one can NOT change one's views at will, how is it fair to be punished for eternity for that? (Remember: God makes the rules!)

Hi Harrie,

The link to "tolerance" was a video taken in a suburb of Jakarta where a group of Christians were trying to worship but were prevented to do so by some muslims with speakers blasting some arabic music. This suggests muslims do not believe in the same god as christians (I agree).

The "allah" link was about Malaysia (Indonesia is doing the same) legislating the name allah to be the muslim god and no one else is permitted to use the name. Bibles use the word allah for the word "god" but muslims believes it is a personal name (I agree that it is). All bibles were being asked to be recalled and to make sure that any future printing did not contain the word allah. The christians in the video complains that there are no other word for god in their language, but in my opinion they should take it in their stride to be creative and distinctive, as an opportune time.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › I am quite amazed by this remark. To me it sounds as if Christians are quite free to interpret the Bible the way they like? Don't you as a Christian long to follow God?

Harrie, I hope you can take a moment to consider this: the bible talks about the subject of divorce and remarriage, in fact it has some rules on the matter. Does this mean that God condones divorce? I do not think so. But God did not forbid it? That's right. Now we know when God forbids, He does so like this:

13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
(ESV Ex 20:13–17).

OK so when God forbids it is clear, and when God permits He gives some rules but without encroaching on things forbidden right? That's right.

Lets see the reasoning behind the subject of divorce.

Men and women are intended to walk with God, having done so are put together as husband and wife by God, but only if they are willing. The problem is that it is not in the majority of cases that men and women find each other with God being involved. Divorce happens sometimes, it's not God's intention and will, but in order to make the best of the situation and to prevent doing things strictly forbidden God regulates it.

3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
(ESV Mt 19:3–9).

Now Harrie, I am not sure if you are able to see the principles here that can be applied to all the other topics that you brought out.

Hi Oxy,

I regret that my main issue will not be addressed: that one can not chose in what to believe and how that will work out with converting Muslims. But OK, I will let that go with some pain in my heart as it would be a much more interesting discussion.

Over to the, to me, more trivial issues:

Perhaps we are confusing a few things here: there are views of theists and there are historical facts.
The fact I hope we can agree on is that all three big religions, Judaism, Islam and Christianity sprouted from the same Abrahamic root.
The fact that those three branches again branched off in various ways, often causing frictions among Jews of different branches, causing friction among Muslims of different branches and causing friction among Christians of different branches.
For example: do you consider Mormons or LDS Christians and do they worship the same God as you?

At some arbitrary point no doubt the theists will consider the differences too great for comfort and take the view that "the others" must therefor worship another God altogether. YOU feel that way, but no doubt many Muslims feel that way too.

But I am a non-believer all together! I am an outsider and only see gray areas between all those religions and all those branches and even among individual theists of the same branch. It is actually, very much like evolution where there is never a clear transition between one generation and the other!
Religions evolve from one point of view to another all the time. Many of the Abrahamic roots can be traced to older Babylonical religions: read the Enuma Elisj for example.

And indeed: there are heaps of asshole Muslims that troll Christians, but definitely also many Christians that do the same to Muslims.
That we in the West have more religious tolerance towards other religious is because most Western nations are secular in nature while many nations where Islam is dominating don't have a separation of state and religion. This wasn't always the case: please read about how Iran looked like in the past for example!
Simply google "iran in the 70s" and watch some pics. And Iran was Muslim in those days as well!


Now, assuming that this Abrahamic God really exists: what would He think about Christians and Muslims fighting and bullying each-other?

Quote: › OK so when God forbids it is clear, and when God permits He gives some rules but without encroaching on things forbidden right? That's right.

It isn't all that clear to me, so just lets go back to my list and see what you think God tells us about it:


Is slavery condoned by God or not?
Did God not harden the heart of the Pharaoh or not?
Did God caused the death of the oldest children of Egypt, slaves and animals included, or not?
Did God not allow Satan to toy with Job or not?
Does God condones gay lifestyle or not?
Are males and females of the same value to God or not?
Should women obey their husbands or not?
Should men obey their wives or not?
Does God let non-believers burn for eternity or not?

That should get us some clear starting points I hope...


It is still sad that you continue to avoid the more interesting issues, the topic of this thread, all together. Why is that? Has it to do with free will?

I suppose I will not hear any answers to those questions for quite some time...


Perhaps any Christian might start to wonder why they seem such hard questions?

To me it seems that God can't do anything wrong simply because He is God and has the right to do anything, even when we humans would think it is appalling; slavery, torturing,killing innocents and such...

Is it strange that I think that this is a sure sign that the God in the Bible isn't a true and loving God? IF He exist, He at best should be feared.


Perhaps I will drop in some time again...

Harrie I'm back for another short stint. If you are still reading....

Harrie wrote (View Post): › I asked too many questions again? I get the hint and stop doing that. I will answer your questions and will not bother you any longer. I can't get the information I am looking for anyway.

You can ask all the questions you want, remember this is your thread, if there are lots of questions for me to choose, then my choice might be to start where it is expedient or fundamental or some other reason... all of which may not be the way you want it. So don't complain if your main question gets side tracked. It is up to you to control the questioning to cover what you are interested in. You should control the order in which you liked them answered. Keep going back to the question if it is not being answered to your satisfaction. Although I don't guarantee that I will have an answer.

Anyway, ask again your question to refresh my memory. It's been a while.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › You can't chose to believe or not to believe; it just doesn't work that way, you become convinced!

Not sure I agree with you there. You can be convinced that you will not get caught by the cops for doing something illegal, but you can still choose NOT to do it.

Greetings Harrie,

You have asked some very good questions which may be considered by some to be very tough questions. Would you consider allowing someone else a chance to answer those questions? The following is your list of questions I am referring to.

"It isn't all that clear to me, so just lets go back to my list and see what you think God tells us about it:


Is slavery condoned by God or not?
Did God not harden the heart of the Pharaoh or not?
Did God caused the death of the oldest children of Egypt, slaves and animals included, or not?
Did God not allow Satan to toy with Job or not?
Does God condones gay lifestyle or not?
Are males and females of the same value to God or not?
Should women obey their husbands or not?
Should men obey their wives or not?
Does God let non-believers burn for eternity or not? "

Quote: › Would you consider allowing someone else a chance to answer those questions? The following is your list of questions I am referring to.

Greetings Revelations Too,

Of-course you are more than welcome to join in, at least from my point of view!

Hi Oxy,

Glad you returned after all. I don't visit that often anymore, but I happened to check in again today.

Quote: › You should control the order in which you liked them answered. Keep going back to the question if it is not being answered to your satisfaction.

I hoped that was clear, and I think it was.

Quote: › You can be convinced that you will not get caught by the cops for doing something illegal, but you can still choose NOT to do it.

That is not the same. If I am convinced I am not doing anything illegal, I will need to become convinced first of the fact that I am indeed doing something illegal. Only than I can choose to break the law or not.


Regarding religion: nobody can simply choose what to believe can they? You always need to be convinced if something is true or not. Always. Only then you can perhaps choose to ignore that truth or not, but that is not my point.

In the same manner you will have a really hard time convincing a Muslim that he is wrong, as he is just as convinced that his religion is correct as you are. There is no solution to this problem as both religions can't come up with any objective proof to support their different views.



Science is the only method that can do such things, that is why science is not a religion.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Glad you returned after all. I don't visit that often anymore, but I happened to check in again today.

Hi Harrie, good to hear. Lets get to it.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Regarding religion: nobody can simply choose what to believe can they? You always need to be convinced if something is true or not. Always. Only then you can perhaps choose to ignore that truth or not, but that is not my point.

Agreed.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › In the same manner you will have a really hard time convincing a Muslim that he is wrong, as he is just as convinced that his religion is correct as you are.

Agreed.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › There is no solution to this problem as both religions can't come up with any objective proof to support their different views.

It's not a problem I spend much time thinking about. However, God can and does speak, and we are mindful that we believers do not operate alone in sharing what we believe. God actually has to take the most important part in touching a person's heart. There is a spiritual dimension here. The Muslim may certainly be spiritually open and in this case be open to hearing the Gospel.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Science is the only method that can do such things, that is why science is not a religion.

Yes that's probably true, and yet maybe we are not talking exactly about the same things Harrie. You use "science" words and are describing material/physical outcomes. I am using "spiritual" words since I am describing spiritual outcomes.

I love science, but I think at this time, it is primarily a tool to describe and explain the physical realm not the spiritual realm. This does not mean that we throw away our intellect in our capacity to discern spiritual matters.