Book-The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel

Ok so got up to page 249 of his book and then I read

"And how could he (Jesus) arrange to be born when he was?......When you interprete Daniel 9:24-26, it fortells that the Messiah would appear a certain length of time after king Artaxerxes I issued a decree for the Jewish people to go from Persia to rebuild the wall in Jerusalem" and Strobels friend Lapides says "That puts the anticipated appearance of the Messiah at the exact moment in history when Jesus showed up"

I thought what a load of b.s. so I checked it out.
HELP !! This prediction does seem to have some validity with the 62 times seven and seventy times seven (490)year thing. Coming from the 465BC era . I am a little unsure of the name relations of Xerxes Artaxerxes and Darius. But Daniel ch9 seems to be relevant.

Quote: › 1 In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes[a] (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian[b] kingdom— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. 3 So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.
4 I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed:

“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.

7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, LORD, because we have sinned against you. 9 The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10 we have not obeyed the LORD our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14 The LORD did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the LORD our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.

15 “Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. 16 Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.

17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”

The Seventy “Sevens”
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[k]”[l]

Help- if what Strobel is saying is correct, I may be at risk of loosing some of my faith in my lack of faith. Smile

Greetings mole,

I have reviewed your quote and comments relating thereto, but somehow I missed or failed to understand your position which appears to present a conflict.

Can you please give a little more detail on the issues which appear to raise concern regarding the quoted scripture? I suspect that when this is explored a little deeper we will find that there is no difficulty to be noted.

Regards,
RT

The conflict is not with the Bible, but with my perception of it.
Without looking deeply into it yet it, seems to prophesy things about the the messiah that would happen 490 years in the future these prophesies were written about 465BC , and it suggested things about the Messiah that would happen in 35 ADish (date ring a bell?)

The conflict is I can't believe a prophecy about the messiah written about 465BC explaining what would happen in 35ADish actually appeares to have some validity.My cry for help is for atheists and agnostics to put me on the "right" track,and explain with a bit of O.T. hermeneutics where my reasoning may have gone wrong. Very Happy

Ps can I hear Rerun sniggering in the background?

You have posted in this forum: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:14 am Post subject:

The problem with prophecies is that they are always made before events actually happen. Thus, a determined person or creative writer can make those events self-fulfilling or at least appear that way.

Quote: › The problem with prophecies is that they are always made before events actually happen. Thus, a determined person or creative writer can make those events self-fulfilling or at least appear that way.

Thanks Nator. What I would like to determine is :Was the prophecy actually written before say 10BC. And regardless of wether it is "creative writing" or the genuine article ,did Jesus and the Jerusalem issues occure at the right time?
Ps I got my addition wrong 465BC. plus 490 years is of course 25AD.

You have posted in this forum: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:05 am Post subject:

Doesn't really matter if it was penned then. People of Jesus's time that could do enough basic math, could and likely would have figured out that it was the time predicted, and then made events fit with what was previously written.

The issue isn't that Jesus arranged to be born at the right time, but rather that he and/or his compatriots realized the time in relation to that prophecy and then conspired to make events fit the prophecy, whether those events actually happened or were just written in doesn't really matter.

I know I should just do more research on this topic myself but I just don't seem to get around to it.Nator are you saying that if the people who "made events fit with what was previously written" and "conspired to make events fit the prophecy" , had done their schemeing at any other time in history their scheme would have less credence?

You have posted in this forum: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject:

Yes and no. Had they done the things in a prophecy (whether it was vague or specific about the time of occurence) at another time, then doctored the prophecy to fit their time, then credence would only be an issue if they got caught, say by a person who knew the prophecy well enough to know they had tampered with it or if an undoctored copy were found that showed them wrong.

But in order to prove that, you'd have to catch them red-handed, which given the amount of time that has passed since then is nearly impossible.

Which really leaves you with choosing to trust them or not while having very little evidence to base that judgement upon.

Given that even the most specific prophecies are very vague, I tend to side wth not trusting anybody who claims them fulfilled without a great deal of evidence in support, and even then keep a very skeptical eye turned toward them.

What I'm saying is, the prophecy about the coming messiah turning up about 25ADish must have been written down and in the "public domain" well before Jesus was born. Jesus was born at roughly the right time to give this prophecy credance. If Jesus happened to be born in 100 BC or 150 AD we would have been able to use this prophecy to disprove his messiahship. I am granting the Christians the reality that Jesus existed. It seems to me a reasonable assertion that Jesus existed as an historical person, it's his divinity I find suspect.
But as a prophecy I give it 5 out of 10 Very Happy

moleowner wrote (View Post): › I am granting the Christians the reality that Jesus existed. It seems to me a reasonable assertion that Jesus existed as an historical person, it's his divinity I find suspect.
But as a prophecy I give it 5 out of 10 Very Happy

So are you saying Jesus was historic in his madness (or at least his apostles were)?

But what about his death on the cross? do they put people on the cross for being insane?

I'm not saying Jesus was mad or insane, and I can't fathom out why you think I might think he was. Unless you misread historical for hysterical. Smile

moleowner wrote (View Post): › I'm not saying Jesus was mad or insane, and I can't fathom out why you think I might think he was. Unless you misread historical for hysterical. Smile

Since you have kindly granted His historicity, then I would like to ask.... you know... was Jesus "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?"

Its my opinion that Jesus was missguided. I think he was an ordinary mortal who genuinly believed he was the Messiah and didn't deliberatly deceive anyone.

Yeah... what ever.