A few questions arose when reading another thread about Christians reaching out to Muslims. As one of my post was removed there in the past for not being on topic well enough and “belittling,” I have started a new thread.

As a non-theist, I consider Christianity, Judaism and Islam as three branches of exactly the same root; they all three believe in the same God, but just in a different manner.

Christians regard Jesus as Son of God/God Himself (I still don’t grasp that concept.) Anyway, you as Christians know best what you believe.

Jews don’t recognize Jesus at all, as according to them Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies, He did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah, they think that Biblical verses referring to Jesus are mistranslations and that the Jewish belief is based on national revelation. According to the Jews, Jesus is NOT Divine and NOT a prophet and NOT a Messiah.

Muslims do not consider Jesus to be divine, but they DO consider Jesus to be an important prophet AND a Messiah. The Koran has many verses about Jesus, be it in a different spelling: ‘Isa.’ The belief in Jesus is required to be a Muslim.

To me Muslims therefor appear to be in-between Christianity and Judaism; respecting the old testament just like the Jews do, but a high respect and recognition for Jesus (be it not divine) that comes closer to Christianity.

So I would think that concerning Jesus, Muslims would be closer to Christianity than the Jewish?
Yet, to me, Christians appear to feel much closer to Jews than to Muslims? If that is correct, then why?
Has it to do with 911? Is it Christian guilt about the way Christians treated the Jewish in the past?
A fear that Muslims will increase in number and push out Christianity? This was one of the major fears of the Christian killer Anders Breivik, who has a deep hatred of Muslims and everybody that tolerates Muslims.

What would YOU do, if a Muslim reached out to you to convert you to Islam?
My guess is that you would definitly NOT convert, no matter what, for your belief is strong, am I right?
Don’t you think that most Muslims will not have an equally strong faith as you?
So how would you go about converting Muslims to Christianity?
Would you not be able to convert only those Muslims with a weak faith, so they might convert back easily if they talk to a Muslim again as soon as you turn your back?
Why is the conversion needed in the first place, as Muslims DO belief in exactly the same God as you do? Should you not be converting all Christians too, to the exact variation of your faith?
Where do you think that God would draw the line between correct faith and incorrect faith and how come that you as a human can judge who needs to be converted to the ‘correct’ variation of faith?
On other words: how do YOU know where God draws that line?
So where does God draw that line concerning you? After all Jesus was not a Christian, but a Jew, and God’s chosen people were Jews! Did Jesus ever claim He was God? Should you not be Jewish then if you wish to follow Him? And if you, unlike the Jewish, believe that Jesus was a prophet and a Messiah, should you not be Muslim?


These are still sincere questions! (Have a little faith in me as a human being please!)
And if you need to delete my post or even ban me for asking this, so be it. There is no use for me to post if I am not allowed to ask questions. You should ask yourself why those questions bother you so much though.

Kind regards,

Harrie.

Hi Harrie,

Who are you addressing with these questions? Anyway, I'll attempt to answer you as best as I can.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › As a non-theist, I consider Christianity, Judaism and Islam as three branches of exactly the same root; they all three believe in the same God, but just in a different manner.

In the same way, I may not be able to tell apart an identical twin from the other. But the mother, who intimately knows her offspring has a different view.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Jews don’t recognize Jesus at all.... According to the Jews, Jesus is NOT Divine and NOT a prophet and NOT a Messiah.

Actually the only people that recognised Jesus as to who He is and what He did in the beginning were Jews. Today there are great numbers of Jewish believers in Yeshua.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Muslims do not consider Jesus to be divine, but they DO consider Jesus to be an important prophet AND a Messiah. The Koran has many verses about Jesus, be it in a different spelling: ‘Isa.’ The belief in Jesus is required to be a Muslim.

I do not believe they know the same Jesus as the one in the Bible, if they did, they would believe what He said there. What they are asked to believe is a different Jesus as presented in the Quran.

Well, thanks for your response Oxo, although I admit that I hoped you would have responded to the more interesting issues..

Quote: › actually the only people that recognised Jesus as to who He is and what He did in the beginning were Jews. .

Sure, like the first protestant were Catholics and the first atheists theists. Do you consider yourself to be Jewish? And if not, where is this transition between Judaism and Christianity?

Quote: › Today there are great numbers of Jewish believers in Yeshua

Are there? Are they still true Jews in that case? For example: A Christian who does not belief that Jesus is divine, would that still be a Christian?

Quote: › I do not believe they know the same Jesus as the one in the Bible, if they did, they would believe what He said there. What they are asked to believe is a different Jesus as presented in the Quran.

What did Jesus say? Did He say He was God? Why should it not be the same person? I think they simply see that same person differently than you do, don't you think? Or are you serious about Muslims believing an a completely different person than 'your' Jesus? How is Jesus presented in the Koran you think?

Would you appreciate Muslims more if they believed in the same Jesus as you do?
How would you try to convert a Muslim?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Are there? Are they still true Jews in that case? For example: A Christian who does not belief that Jesus is divine, would that still be a Christian?

What is your definition of "true Jews"? There are all kinds of Jews as you may know, there are secular ones, atheistic ones, rabbinic, orthodox.... what makes any of them "true Jews"?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › And if not, where is this transition between Judaism and Christianity?

Act 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

However, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah spoken of in the Hebrew Bible. Yahweh is the personal name of the God I worship. That makes me a Gentile believer. A member of the wild olive that was grafted in by grace.

Also, all of the scriptures of the New Testament were written by Jews (with the possible exception of Luke).

Harrie wrote (View Post): › What did Jesus say? Did He say He was God?

Yes. And Harrie, you can check the bible out for yourself, start small with the book of John. If you deny the biblical record, then I have no further comment of course. But say you go along for the sake of argument. Here are a few samplings:

8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. 59They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.” 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Would you appreciate Muslims more if they believed in the same Jesus as you do?

If they believed the Jesus of the Bible, they can not help but completely reject the Qur'an. The two accounts are completely incompatible.

As you can see, in the bible, Jesus died on the cross for our atonement and we are saved by grace.
In the Qur'an Isa did not die on the cross, Allah would not let that happen and no one need atonement, people can be saved through works plus, if any, Allah's mercy, provided they show submission to Allah.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › How would you try to convert a Muslim?

If the interaction presents itself and the person is open to it then I can tell them about the love of God through Jesus and how it works in my normal daily life. (SNIP) I've decided to delete what I've written because for most of these dear ones, for them to accept Jesus is no small matter, it takes not only faith but great courage also.

Hi Oxy,

Quote: › “What is your definition of "true Jews"? There are all kinds of Jews as you may know, there are secular ones, atheistic ones, rabbinic, orthodox.... what makes any of them "true Jews"?”

Atheistic Jews? Do you mean agnostic Jews perhaps? But that would be irrelevant to the issue?
Anyway: A true Jew does not believe that Jesus was Divine, does not believe He was the messiah, does not believe He was a prophet, does not mean anything special at all to them, outside their knowledge that He is fundamental to Christians.
Of-course there can be deveations, but I think we can agree that at one point those deveations become too great to be acceptable to the larger group the splinter faith originated off. The same way Christianity once splintered off from Judaism, strayed, some will even claim.

I asked “What did Jesus say? Did He say He was God?”

Quote: › “Yes. And Harrie, you can check the bible out for yourself, start small with the book of John. (…) 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.”

Weren’t all other sons of God already before Abraham was born? Satan included?
Job 1:6 “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.”

Is Satan Divine in the same sense you belief Jesus is Divine? Are Satan and Jesus not brothers? If not, what is that difference outside of behavior?

Also in Genesis:
6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose. (…)
6:4 (…) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children.”

Does Jesus Himself say anywhere in the Bible that He is more than a Son of God but a God Himself?

About converting Muslims:

Quote: › “If the interaction presents itself and the person is open to it then I can tell them about the love of God through Jesus and how it works in my normal daily life. (SNIP) I've decided to delete what I've written because for most of these dear ones, for them to accept Jesus is no small matter, it takes not only faith but great courage also.”

Why would it take great courage to accept Jesus?

Do you have the courage to convert to Islam?

Would it not be easier to convert a Muslim than to convert a Jew because Muslims already believe that Jesus was a prophet and the Messiah? So the topic of Jesus would immediately ring a bell, similar to mentioning Mohammed? While in Judaism talking about Jesus wouldn’t mean a thing?

Do you feel closer to Judaism or to Islam and why?

Hello Harrie, how are you?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Anyway: A true Jew does not believe that Jesus was Divine, does not believe He was the messiah, does not believe He was a prophet, does not mean anything special at all to them, outside their knowledge that He is fundamental to Christians.

I don't think it's that simple; it sounds like a description of an Atheist

If the Jews were indeed chosen by God, then we need God to define it. You need the scriptures to back it up. But I don't know if it's worthwhile to pursue this line of enquiry.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Of-course there can be deveations, but I think we can agree that at one point those deveations become too great to be acceptable to the larger group the splinter faith originated off. The same way Christianity once splintered off from Judaism, strayed, some will even claim.

Did you know that there are many groups or "deviations" as you say within Judaism? Did you know that God talks about the "remnant" that He favours? Not a majority who were unfaithful to God.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Weren’t all other sons of God already before Abraham was born? Satan included?

That's true, however when Jesus said "I am" he used the expression that would have alerted his hearers to Exodus 3:14, so their response was to stone him. It was a reference to his equality with God that was the issue.

In Christian theology, Jesus is the unique "Son of God", He is the creator, not a created being. Those other sons of God are created beings.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Is Satan Divine in the same sense you belief Jesus is Divine? Are Satan and Jesus not brothers? If not, what is that difference outside of behavior?

Thank you for this question Harrie, I answer from a Christian's perspective:

No, Satan is not divine nor are they brothers. I would ascribe divinity to only one God and no other. As mentioned above, Jesus is the second person of the Godhead, God incarnate. God is creator, Satan is created.

Satan is a wannabe creator, he can't go up in the fact of his status so he does everything in his power to bring down the Creator to his level (to get the appearance of equality) and unfortunately, he has successfully deceived many.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Does Jesus Himself say anywhere in the Bible that He is more than a Son of God but a God Himself?

Jesus didn't come to do that, his purpose was to point us to God, to make us look to God and to express the love of God. Jesus wasn't concerned about his divinity, rather he wants us to know his humanity. People call him "the Son of God" but he prefers to tell us that he is "the Son of Man".

Mt 26:63 But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it.* But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And one more

Php 2:5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself
by* taking the form of a slave,
by* becoming in the likeness of people.
And being found in appearance like a man,
8 he humbled himself
by* becoming obedient to the point of death,
that is, death on a cross.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › About converting Muslims: Why would it take great courage to accept Jesus?

Living in a "western" country I can see how it would be difficult to imagine the immediate risk and challenge that new converts face. Consider these ones that have come from non-western countries that have existing ties with family and country both here and back there. Declaring one's new found faith openly means automatic ostracisation by friends, family and country. There are other things, but I won't elaborate.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Do you feel closer to Judaism or to Islam and why?

You keep asking this one Harrie, I thought it was obvious. Anyway, I quote from the Bible not the Qur'an. I also worship the same God with the same name: YHWH, is still YHWH even if it is transliterated as Yahweh or Jehovah. Importantly, I celebrate a fulfilled Passover (unfortunately they named it after some Pagan goddess here). I also pray for Israel, for their well being and for peace in their country.

Hi Oxy,

Quote: › “How are you?”

In continental Europe this question is more a question indeed, while in the USA this seems to be more of a greeting. How is that in Australia?
Anyway, I’m fine, thanks. Still very happy with my family, still have a job so my bills are paid, and on top of that a bit more time again to write, make music and spend some time with my family. On matters of religion we are still a mixed family with 2 atheists, 1 Pascal wager RC, and 1 half Hindu.
And you?


About the Jewish views of Jesus:

Quote: › “I don't think it's that simple; it sounds like a description of an Atheist “

It’s a Jewish description. I have no idealistic or religious reasons to twist Jewish faith.
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Jewish-View-Of-Jesus.htm

There are many more around…

Quote: › “If the Jews were indeed chosen by God, then we need God to define it. You need the scriptures to back it up. But I don't know if it's worthwhile to pursue this line of enquiry.”

To me it is only important how the Jews define their own belief, as we are talking about their views of Christianity. In a similar manner Jews can't define your faith by the Torah and I can't define your faith by science.

Quote: › “Did you know that there are many groups or "deviations" as you say within Judaism? Did you know that God talks about the "remnant" that He favors? Not a majority who were unfaithful to God.”

I suppose that all believers of the Abrahamic group are convinced that they are the true followers of the real God, don’t you think? And therefor are convinced that all others are to some extent unfaithful to God?

Quote: › “That's true, however when Jesus said "I am" he used the expression that would have alerted his hearers to Exodus 3:14, so their response was to stone him. It was a reference to his equality with God that was the issue.”

Exodus 3:14. God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

I agree, that seems quite plausible to me. But again: did Jesus say this Himself, or did somebody claim He said that? Except for a small splinter group among the Jewish, the Jewish in general apparently did not, and still don’t, believe this is the truth? Why do God’s chosen people NOT believe Jesus is Divine?

Quote: › “In Christian theology, Jesus is the unique "Son of God", He is the creator, not a created being. Those other sons of God are created beings.”

But if Jesus IS God, than why did He say things as “Father, why did you forsake me?” and “not my, but Your will shall be done?”

Quote: › “No, Satan is not divine nor are they brothers. I would ascribe divinity to only one God and no other. As mentioned above, Jesus is the second person of the Godhead, God incarnate.”

Was Satan a son of God or not?

Quote: › “God is creator, Satan is created.”

Satan is evil. We can agree that humans did not create Satan, so humans can’t have anything to do with Satan being evil? Did God create evil? Remember that God is all powerful and all knowing. Did God not know what HE was doing while He created Satan?
So God is not all-powerful or all-knowing, OR He created evil (Satan) into this world on purpose?

Quote: › “Satan is a wannabe creator, he can't go up in the fact of his status so he does everything in his power to bring down the Creator to his level (to get the appearance of equality) and unfortunately, he has successfully deceived many.”

I think Satan often only does what God wants him to do? For example: why would God Himself need a tree with forbidden fruit? He obviously planted that there for Adam and Eve? Why else? So the by God created Satan fits nicely in that plan to assist God by seducing Eve. How can it NOT be God’s plan?
Then the case of Job, the only time Satan killed people, about 10 or so; was with God’s approval. Satan obeyed God and kept his word not to kill Job.
I know you will claim that Satan caused many deaths in modern times, but that is not in the Bible and so you have no proof of that.

By the way, if I compare the kill list of God and Satan, Satan does very poorly with only 10 down, and that was even with God’s consent. Satan does not seem to kill without God’s consent? Satan is the most pathetic antagonist in all times I think…


About the dangers for Muslims to convert:

Quote: › “Consider these ones that have come from non-western countries that have existing ties with family and country both here and back there. Declaring one's new found faith openly means automatic ostracisation by friends, family and country.”

I agree, for many it would be difficult. But only this last weekend we had some Muslims visiting us; refugees from Iraq. Their daughter is a good friend of our daughter. The couple is very modern, no head scarf and such but nail polish (for the wife ; ) ) but they are still religious as they obey the “halal” food rules and such. The same situation at my work, where several Muslims work as well in varying degrees of religious belief. The way they live and deal with Westerners should be problematic already, but it isn’t as I know they are all in regular contact with their family back home without any problems.
So, no doubt there would be some families who would ostracize their relatives for turning Christian, but I think the main problem would be that most Muslims simply BELIEVE with whole their heart that what they believe is the truth, just like you do.
If they only pretend they are Muslims to avoid trouble, they are not really Muslims are they?
And it would not be much of a problem to live a secret Christian life if a Muslim would convert? Many atheists in the USA seem to do the same by appearing Christian to the outside world, and only open up to very close friends or relatives or perhaps nobody?

Quote: › “Anyway, I quote from the Bible not the Qur'an. I also worship the same God with the same name: YHWH, is still YHWH even if it is transliterated as Yahweh or Jehovah.

Muslims definitly worship the same God as you, even if they call Him differently. “Allah” simply means “God,” in Arabic, and even Arab speaking Christians and Jews say “Allah.” It is linguistic in nature and not religious. In a similar way Germans say "Got" or the Spanish "Dio."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_Muslims_call_their_god_Allah

Well, you do realize that the OT and the Qur’an have many similarities? Don’t you think that Jews see the NT much the same way as you see the Mormon books, as a fraud?

Quote: › “Importantly, I celebrate a fulfilled Passover (unfortunately they named it after some Pagan goddess here).”

Well, true; Muslims believe that Jesus was a messiah and a prophet, but not that he was resurrected, so no reason to celebrate that. But for Jews Easter has nothing to do with Jesus either, only with their end of Egyptian slavery. They celebrate it as it already was before Jesus.
Do you not celebrate the resurrection of Christ?

Quote: › “I also pray for Israel, for their well being and for peace in their country.”

Would you not rather pray for justice and peace for all nations, instead of the well being and peace of just one country?

Would a crime committed by a Jew be less bad than the same crime by a Muslim?

Is this Christian preference for Israelites at the heart of the US support for Israel you think?
If I, as a non-religious human being, look upon the Israel/Palestine situation, it seems to me that the Palestinians would need support much more than the Israelis’: there is ratio of up to 4 or 5 (depending on source) dead Palestinians to every dead Israeli.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

You might doubt those reports of-course, but if the Israelites are the ones being wiped out and in need of support, how can you explain that the Palestinian land is diminishing rapidly? This is a fact you can quite easily check…

http://zionismexplained.org/map/landmap1.jpg

By the way: this is definitely not a personal dislike for Israel or Israelis’ or something like that: the culture I grew up in was also quite pro-Jewish (Anne Frank!) And I have visited Israel when I was young, worked there in the Kibbutz and traveled through the country. I got along just fine with the Israeli’s and met some great people, one even traveled to my country and lived with us for some weeks. But the Palestinians I have met were very much the same great people too. Still they hate each other and do horrible things to each other…
Anyway: I would have been against the Germans during WWII as they were killing off innocent Jews. I oppose to Israel as at this moment in time they are killing off Palestinians, nor do I condone Palestian attacks on innocent Israeli civilians. But in general terms the Palestinians are way off worse. Can you understand that way of thinking?

The amazing fact is that Israelites and Palestinians are genetically one people:

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

(That does not stop the hatred of-course…)

But who belongs to God’s chosen people?
Do some of the Muslims not belong to the Chosen ones?
Can, for example, a black guy who has no genetic relationship with the Jews whatsoever, become a Chosen one if he converts to Judaism?
If so, why are you not Jewish as Jesus was Jewish? (And did not come to change “one iota” of the Law anyway, so the NT should not count as an excuse to do away with those laws under the “gentile” excuse.)
If not, how come it’s fair that one can belong to the Chosen ones by birth?

Sorry for the long post, take your time...

G'day Harrie,

Greetings, its good to hear that things are OK with you.

Lets' get to your questions:

Harrie wrote (View Post): › It’s a Jewish description. I have no idealistic or religious reasons to twist Jewish faith.

Not suggesting you are twisting anything at all Harrie, only pointing out that the description you listed can be applied elsewhere not just a "true Jew".

The link you provided led to an article that made some broad sweeps about "Jews". I suspect it was written for Gentile consumption. Messianic Jews are called apostate Jews, they are Jews nonetheless. The real issue is not whether Jews who follow Jesus are still Jewish, but whether Jesus is the Messiah predicted in the scriptures. There are lots of counter arguments that can be presented but it will lead to further (multiple) lines of enquiry. We are already off topic as it is.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › I suppose that all believers of the Abrahamic group are convinced that they are the true followers of the real God, don’t you think? And therefor are convinced that all others are to some extent unfaithful to God?

We are getting somewhere here if we can agree to use Scripture, the Tanakh (OT) for our common source of evidence and let God define the faithful. The Hebrew Scriptures is thorougly open in approach, its a tell all, and we can be more objective to an extent, in our assessments.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Why do God’s chosen people NOT believe Jesus is Divine?

Another great question Harrie! I refer to Saul Paul who was an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin, who wrote (addresing Gentile brothers):

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in...

I encourage you to read the whole chapter for context.

This hardending is only for a time and has the purpose of making available salvation for the world, i.e. the Gentiles.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › But if Jesus IS God, than why did He say things as “Father, why did you forsake me?” and “not my, but Your will shall be done?”

I'd like to answer this and the few others like it that you posted but haven't we answered them somewhere already in this forum? Since it's way off topic, I suggest that you find the threads or start new threads.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › The way they live and deal with Westerners should be problematic already, but it isn’t as I know they are all in regular contact with their family back home without any problems.

I'm not surprised since they are still Muslims, professing or otherwise.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Muslims definitly worship the same God as you, even if they call Him differently. “Allah” simply means “God,” in Arabic, and even Arab speaking Christians and Jews say “Allah.” It is linguistic in nature and not religious. In a similar way Germans say "Got" or the Spanish "Dio."

I'm afraid that wiki answers link you gave led to an article that was written by someone not aware that Elohim is the Hebrew term for God.

Sure if you think "Allah" is the same as "Got" "Dio" and "God" that is up to you, but my post was about the identity and personal name Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, not the generic term for God. Just because there is a common term for deity it does not follow that we worship the same deity because we use the same (common) term. That should be obvious. Do Muslims worship the Elohim of Israel? I doubt you can find evidence to prove the point.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Well, you do realize that the OT and the Qur’an have many similarities?

Close scrutiny will reveal that they are only superficially similar, minor similarities. The similarities are such they often present itself as if seeking to undermine the OT. But that is not unexpected.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Do you not celebrate the resurrection of Christ?

It's what I meant by "a fulfilled Passover".

Hi Oxy,

You did skip many, many questions…
I take that hint and try to keep it much shorter, but I hope you will forgive me for asking the to me more important questions again.

First to get a few things clear:

Although I am convinced that Muslims worship the same God as you: the God of Abraham, you obviously deny this. I doubt it we will ever come to an agreement and I suppose it is not that important to the discussion, as long as we understand what the other is thinking.

May I state that you dislike Islam but appreciate “Judaism” and the state of Israel?
And that, if I understand you correctly, believe that it is not that obvious that main stream Judaism denies that Jesus is Divine, denies He is a prophet and denies He is the messiah, because Messianic Jews you consider Jewish have a different opinion? (In my opinion main stream Judaism does not accept them as Jews but regards them as Christians, so does the US army and so do I.)
As we can’t agree on a mutual accepted definition of mainstream Judaism I suppose further discussion about Judaism itself will be rather tedious and useless…


My main question remains why a Muslim would convert to Christianity if you as a Christian are not capable of converting to Islam? What could you possibly say to a Muslim version of the Christian you? What could possibly convince YOU to convert to Islam?

Then, slightly off topic but very interesting to me and I hope you will answer it: do you think that Christian views play a role in the attitude of the USA towards the Israel/Palestine problems?

Hi Harrie,

I think I can answer your questions quickly:

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Although I am convinced that Muslims worship the same God as you: the God of Abraham, you obviously deny this.

That's right Harrie, but I want you to realise that my reasons are based on comparing the character of the divinity.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › May I state that you dislike Islam but appreciate “Judaism” and the state of Israel?

Not quite, I attempt to appreciate and understand the spiritual battle that goes on behind the scenes. I dislike anything that seeks to lead people away from the truth of the Gospel. I mentioned earlier about Satan trying to find equality with God, so I see things like the contributions of Joseph Smith as counterfeits that plays into the hand of Satan in his wish to find equality with God and Muhammad as counterfeits that seeks to draw people away from the Gospel, and as Satan's attempt to diminish the work accomplished by Jesus (denies that Jesus died on the cross). On that last point it is said that Allah would not allow it, contrast the character of Yahweh who so loved the world that He gave His unique Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life(Jn 3:16).

Harrie wrote (View Post): › And that, if I understand you correctly, believe that it is not that obvious that main stream Judaism denies that Jesus is Divine, denies He is a prophet and denies He is the messiah, because Messianic Jews you consider Jewish have a different opinion?

Sorry if I have not been clear, but (since you have now introduced a new phrase) I do accept that "main stream Judaism" denies the divinity of Jesus. What we were talking about was the definition of a "true Jew", and if Jewish believers of Jesus are still Jews. In my opinion they are still Jews, but in the opinion of "main stream Judaism" they might be called apostate Jews.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › [1]My main question remains why a Muslim would convert to Christianity if you as a Christian are not capable of converting to Islam? [2]What could you possibly say to a Muslim version of the Christian you? [3]What could possibly convince YOU to convert to Islam?

1. I don't see the point of this question, but maybe its because they discover the real Truth. I know you will say: who is to know which one is the real Truth? Well, that is something each one must discover for him/herself. I am not going to argue about that.

2. Hypothetically, nothing.

3. Again, nothing that I could think of. Imagine a married couple deeply in love and committed to each other and suddenly Harrie asks the question if there is anything that would convince them to divorce.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › do you think that Christian views play a role in the attitude of the USA towards the Israel/Palestine problems?[/b]

Maybe there is something there, but there is a bigger picture Harrie, Israel is God's chosen people and God can use any nation of the world to bring disaster or bring favour. He has dispersed them from their land, but He has also promised to bring them back. My point is that the influence of surrounding nations are only secondary to the plan and purpose of God.

The first steps of bringing them back has already taken place. And the land was unconditionally promised to Abraham and his descendants. If I understand correctly, a new temple in Jerusalem will be built, it seems impossible right now, but God's favour can accomplish it.

Hi Oxy,

Quote: › “That's right Harrie, but I want you to realize that my reasons are based on comparing the character of the divinity.”

But isn’t the character of the divinity different even between Christian groups? When is a view too different to consider it a ‘different’ divinity?’ I’m afraid that might lead to endless discussions even among groups that consider themselves Christians? I would even say that there will be differences in faith even among Christians of the same branch?

Quote: › “Sorry if I have not been clear, but (since you have now introduced a new phrase) I do accept that "main stream Judaism" denies the divinity of Jesus. What we were talking about was the definition of a "true Jew", and if Jewish believers of Jesus are still Jews. In my opinion they are still Jews, but in the opinion of "main stream Judaism" they might be called apostate Jews.”

OK, now I think I understand you. To me a true Jew is a mainstream Jew that does not consider Jesus Divine, a Messiah or a prophet, while I think the Messianic Jews are much more Christian than Jewish in their views.

Quote: › “I mentioned earlier about Satan trying to find equality with God, so I see things like the contributions of Joseph Smith (…) and Muhammad as counterfeits that seeks to draw people away from the Gospel”

Well, as a non-believer the NT appears to be exactly like that as well, as something that was added later on and is seriously deviating from the original OT. And I think the Jews (outside the Messianic Jews) consider the NT like that as well.
We have discussed this before: to me it seems very strange that a Divine being would set rules and later on effectively change them quite a bit. For example: God explicitly outlawed eating pork and explicitly installed the Sabbath: the Christians effectively created a loop hole by dividing humanity into Jews and Gentiles and now nibble on pork and Sunday is a holy day of rest, while the Christian center figure Jesus even clearly said He did not come to change the existing laws. And why would a fair God set different laws for different people anyway? Why would pork be unclean to Jews but clean for Christians? Are Jews more pure people? Then why should you not be a Jew?
Why is it impossible that the NT once started out in a similar manner as the Joseph Smith writings?
And why would God speak once or twice to humans but then never again? How do we know that what we experience as a certain revelation or inspiration, is NOT Divine? You use your feeling for that, just like all theists do that arrive at a different ‘truth.’
That is, by the way, why I think science is a much better way to find the truth as we humans have some trouble with that just using faith, feeling and perhaps personal experiences.

And don’t worry about Satan, Oxy: Satan would not do anything without God’s consent, see ‘Job.’


I asked: ‘My main question remains why a Muslim would convert to Christianity if you as a Christian are not capable of converting to Islam?’

Quote: › “I don't see the point of this question, but maybe it’s because they discover the real Truth. I know you will say: who is to know which one is the real Truth? Well, that is something each one must discover for him/herself. I am not going to argue about that.”

What I am getting at is that no doubt there will be a Muslim that has exactly as much faith in Islam as you do in your version of Christianity. I assume that your faith is strong enough to overcome any attempt to convert you to Islam. So why would such a Muslim convert to Christianity? He simply thinks it is not the truth, exactly like you believe that Islam is not the truth.

Quote: › “Imagine a married couple deeply in love and committed to each other and suddenly Harrie asks the question if there is anything that would convince them to divorce.”

Excellent analogy. They would indeed laugh at the idea.
This is why I think it would be rather hard trying to convert Muslims and that is how I still wonder about how Christians plan to go about converting Muslims to Christianity; the core of this thread.
No doubt you will always be able to convert a few, but those will be the ones with a weak faith anyway and I doubt it if their new found Christian faith would be much stronger.

I asked if you think that Christian views play a role in the attitude of the USA towards the Israel/Palestine problems.

Quote: › “Maybe there is something there, but there is a bigger picture Harrie, Israel is God's chosen people and God can use any nation of the world to bring disaster or bring favour. (…) My point is that the influence of surrounding nations are only secondary to the plan and purpose of God.”

Well, perhaps an American would be able to answer this better I suppose. But you already seem to think that Christians would side with Israel on any issue they would have with Muslim nations, am I right?

Quote: › “The first steps of bringing them back has already taken place. And the land was unconditionally promised to Abraham and his descendants.”

What if the Aboriginals would start a new faith as they had a Divine revelation that told them they have a right to reclaim Australia and drive the non-Aboriginals out? Perhaps some anti-Christian Muslim groups would support their case and provide them with weapons and money to pull it off. How would you FEEL about that? What would you do?

Quote: › “If I understand correctly, a new temple in Jerusalem will be built, it seems impossible right now, but God's favour can accomplish it.”

A very complex and confusing matter indeed. There are Islamic structures where the temple should be build, but others think the correct spot should be somewhere else anyway, and for some Christians the temple is important and many people will die around that time, and to others it does not seem to be that way.
Jesus himself seems to think it is not that important, when asked where to worship He said, "neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem... But in spirit and in truth".

Therefor it’s perhaps best if you could tell me what this third temple means to you?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › When is a view too different to consider it a ‘different’ divinity?’

Hi Harrie, I am sure that you can find quite a few argumentation on the web like this one.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › And why would a fair God set different laws for different people anyway? Why would pork be unclean to Jews but clean for Christians? Are Jews more pure people? Then why should you not be a Jew?

This is what Jesus said:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (NIV Mt 5:17–20).

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Why is it impossible that the NT once started out in a similar manner as the Joseph Smith writings?

In science, which would you give more credence to: A study with a result verified by multiple scientists with sound credentials or a study purporting an improved result by one scientist with doubtful credentials?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › And why would God speak once or twice to humans but then never again? .... I think science is a much better way to find the truth .

Often when I read the Bible I undertand God speaking to me through what I read. I can learn something through my analysis and sometimes I can get a personal application of it through intuition. God continues to speak to us in various other ways as well, and as we perceive his speaking we use the Bible to verify that what we heard is from God. There are no new revelations of His redemptive plan however, because all is written down already.

The Bible is like a life manual given by God for his people. I use another analogy, if you know anything about the Manufacturing industry, a GMP certified facility will have a Quality Managment System Manual in place. A poorly thought out and poorly written one will need constant revisions and it reflects on the author. But the Author of the Manual in our case is God, and He has thought of all possible circumstances. He demands a perfect product at the end of the line, and rejects defective ones, all SOP's are there to get to a perfect product, the crushing, the melting, the purifying, and the molding. The last SOP He has put in place in Jesus, it is completed, finished, "fulfilled" if you will.

In an exchange within the material realm, such as a business exchange, the required currency is called money. In the spiritual realm the required currency is called faith. No one can do spiritual "business" without faith.

I love science too, but it isn't the God I love, and when it comes to hearing God, I need to use both left and right brain functions.

No doubt you will find some truths about creation using science as a tool, but it is limited to creation.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › This is why I think it would be rather hard trying to convert Muslims and that is how I still wonder about how Christians plan to go about converting Muslims to Christianity; the core of this thread.

We can attend to the outer person as best as we can but let me put it to you Harrie, that if we are talking about a heart conversion, then it is the Holy Spirit that does the converting.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › What if the Aboriginals would start a new faith .... How would you FEEL about that? What would you do?

The situation is not equivalent in my opinion. But on the whole, I take a more pragmatic view in that civilisations had always fought for land and territory, my feelings and what I would do have little bearing.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Therefor it’s perhaps best if you could tell me what this third temple means to you?

It will represent fulfilled prophecy and the beginning of dreadful events before the second coming of Yeshua Messiah.

Hi Oxy,

I asked: When is a view too different to consider it a ‘different’ divinity?’

Quote: › “Hi Harrie, I am sure that you can find quite a few argumentation on the web like this one.”

I would like to hear your personal explanation as the view of one theist might not be the same as another. Why is the God of Judaism still your God but the God of Islam not?

I asked: Why would pork be unclean to Jews but clean for Christians?

Quote: › “This is what Jesus said: (…) Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (…)”

If you follow Jesus, than why do you break those laws?

Me: “Why is it impossible that the NT once started out in a similar manner as the Joseph Smith writings?”

Quote: › “In science, which would you give more credence to: A study with a result verified by multiple scientists with sound credentials or a study purporting an improved result by one scientist with doubtful credentials?”

I would give credence to the scientists that would follow the scientific method more closely. Credentials are nice, but should not have anything to do with science. True science farts on credentials and only looks at what you did, how you did it and the results you produced and if anyone else can reproduce it properly and come to the same results.

God installed the laws of the OT Himself, Jesus, whom you claim to follow, confirmed the validity of those same laws.
Yet you still see reason to believe the human beings in the NT over God and Jesus? Why? How can one, for example, ever follow a law like not eating pork “in spirit?”
And my old question: why would pork be unclean for Jews (and Muslims) but clean for gentiles?

Quote: › “There are no new revelations of His redemptive plan however, because all is written down already.”

How do you know? How do you know that it wasn’t all written down in the OT already, like the Jews (except the Messianic) think?
How do you know that the NT was last and that nothing can ever be added?
You will agree that the NT changed the practical interpretation of the laws to a great extend and divided the believers up into Jews and gentiles?
So why could this not happen again?

Quote: › “I use another analogy, if you know anything about the Manufacturing industry, a GMP certified facility will have a Quality Managment System Manual in place. A poorly thought out and poorly written one will need constant revisions and it reflects on the author.”

Well, a poorly written manual could also lead to multiple interpretations, so everybody would interpret it his own way thinking it is correct, so would never change it.
No revisions do not always indicate high quality, but can also indicate stagnation and an out of date manual.
Revisions keep the manual up to date with the increasing insights and knowledge; that does not mean it was originally poorly written if it incorporated the knowledge of the time it was produced.

Quote: › “I love science too, but it isn't the God I love, and when it comes to hearing God, I need to use both left and right brain functions.”

Science isn’t a God, far from it I think. But to me it is the only way to come closer to the truth. And used correctly, it is an extremely powerful tool: it put men on the moon, found solutions to hunger and disease, gave insight in the workings of the universe and the human mind. It made predictions that came true. It gives humanity a chance to improve conditions for everyone. It PROVED itself.
Without critical thinking there is no limit to what humans can come up with and may assume is true. No doubt you will be familiar with the phenomena of urban myths: they keep going round and round, things being added and some get lost, but if you accept them as is, you believe in something that is not true.
Regard the sheer endless list of Gods, Goddesses, mythical beasts, giants, dwarfs, elves, kobolds and whatnot, mankind once believed existed.
It depends on what it is if that is dangerous or harmless, but it is never good.
If children learn from their parents that such things are true, they might never find out that is isn’t, certainly if I teach them that such beings will be always out of reach of science as you can’t prove they DON’T exist. I teach my children to never assume that anything they see or read is true, but that they always need to find out for themselves about the reality of it. I teach them to think critically of everything, also about authority, and yes, also of scientific results.

Science is a tool to free us from all fabrications so we can see at least a little bit more of the truth around is. That gives us an opportunity to DO something about our own situation more effectively.

If you think that begging Donar to spare you from striking you with lightning helps, than you are worse off than if you learn more about the nature of lightning and construct a lightning rod, that is what science can do for us. And for some funny reason, most churches and temples I see have lightning rods, and for good reason; but why would their God strike His own church or temple with lightning in the first place?
The truth can be frightening though, as reality isn’t always beautiful.

Quote: › “We can attend to the outer person as best as we can but let me put it to you Harrie, that if we are talking about a heart conversion, then it is the Holy Spirit that does the converting.”

If it is the Holy Spirit that does the converting, than why do the not converted need to burn for eternity? In that case they can’t help it and that punishment would be unfair?


Me: “What if the Aboriginals would start a new faith .... How would you FEEL about that? What would you do?”

Quote: › “The situation is not equivalent in my opinion. But on the whole, I take a more pragmatic view in that civilizations had always fought for land and territory, my feelings and what I would do have little bearing.”

Do you think it is justified for the Palestinians to get killed and lose their nation as God promised the land to the Israelites?

Quote: › “It will represent fulfilled prophecy and the beginning of dreadful events before the second coming of Yeshua Messiah.”

Well, in that case it does not sound like a very pleasant happening, does it? How does that make you feel?

Harrie wrote (View Post): › I asked: Why would pork be unclean to Jews but clean for Christians? If you follow Jesus, than why do you break those laws?

Hello Harrie,

Here is the point:

15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 “ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”

10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ ”
(NIV Mt 15:1–11)

Other passages that may be consulted are:

Romans 14:1–23; 1 Corinthians 8:1–13; 10:25–33; and 1 Timothy 4:4

Harrie wrote (View Post): › If it is the Holy Spirit that does the converting, than why do the not converted need to burn for eternity? In that case they can’t help it and that punishment would be unfair?

Consider the opposite case, your own choice not to believe, did the Holy Spirit force you not to believe? The Holy Spirit is prompting you again and again Harrie, what has been your response each time?

You want to use science as a tool to find truth, perhaps that includes finding proof of God, or proof of no God, well I reckon you are using the wrong tool. Science may measure the material, physical realm but it is incapable of measuring the spiritual realm. You say science cannot detect the spiritual realm therefore it does not exist. Is that the way "true" science works?

Jesus said:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (NIV Jn 14:6).