Quote: › I find it a bit amusing that some should claim that miracles are not true because they allegedly contradict science. Has anyone been able to clearly show that they really contradict science? If so, let's see all the evidence.

I can do no better than repeat what I wrote to Rev2 on page 8 of this very thread you are reading to which I got no satisfactory reply.

I also invite the reader to look at page eight of this thread and you will see pictures of the evidence that Rev2 pleads to see.


From page 8
"I thought I might give Revelations Too an example where true religion and science aren't in harmony,with a disagreement between a "prophet" and Egyptologists.
In 1835 Joseph Smith (the prophet) aquired some Egyptian papyri from a travelling salesman .J.S. being a prophet ,seer and revelator has the God given gift to translate all ancient manuscipts.This he proceded to do and blow me down if it didn't turn out to be written by Abraham himself .The account of what the Papyri say became the "Book of Abraham" part of the "Pearl of Great Price" and Mormon scripture.
At roughly the same time Egyptologists were getting to grips with translating hieroglyphics .This came about from the discovery of the Rosetta stone (in 1799)that had the same message in Greek, Demotic and hieroglyphics.They worked out that hieroglyphics could consist of pictures that sound like a word ,like in English drawing a bee then a leaf to mean believe.There is a picture in The pearl of Great Price that Egyptologists accused Smith of altering ,a mans body should have a jackels head,and a bird should have a mans head.They also believed the papyri were an ordinary 0~200 AD funeral document
Egyptologists got a chance to examine these papyri when in 1967 they were rediscovered in the metropolitan Museum of Art after they were thought to have been destroyed in the 1871 Chicago fire.
They found out the reason for the "head" discrepency is that those parts of the original papyrus are missing and that translating the original papyrus with extra bits on the page not reproduced by Smith they discovered its an ordinary Egyptian funeral document from Thebes in upper Egypt called The book of breathings a later expansion of the Book of the dead.

So here is an example of "true" religion and science not being in harmony.
I regard it as a miracle that people can translate hieroglyphics with no training in the subject.

There's a lot more to this story and if anyone wants to ask any questions or get thing clarified don't hesitate to ask. Also if anyone would also like to compare Smiths published drawing of the papyri and the original don't hesitate to ask and I'll post them.They can then get them assessed by their own Egytologist if they want to."



Ps I'm away for a week visiting Napier .Napier is apparently the "art deco" capital of the world as it was all rebuilt in this style after an earthquake in 1931.

Dear Mole,

That's a great question and view which you present. I do not think it well to "jump the gun" and take a position of assuming you have all the facts correct.

I will prepare a response, but it may take a few days with my present schedule.

I find it interesting that you call the translation of the Book of Abraham a "miracle". I do not recall ever referencing such as a miracle.

I think it proper that one should be certain to reference the correct documents that apply to the translation before drawing conclusions.

Regards,
RT

Yep fair enough take your time to answer the question.
I'm not claiming you said it was a miracle about the translation of the Book of Abraham. Its my claim that the ability to translate Egyptian hyroglyphics though the power of God and with no human training is a miracle.
Not sure what you are getting at with your "referencing documents" statement but if there is anything you want to know just ask.

Ps I had a great holiday back now.

From 27/2/11

Quote: › Dear Mole, That's a great question and view which you present. I do not think it well to "jump the gun" and take a position of assuming you have all the facts correct. I will prepare a response, but it may take a few days with my present schedule.

^^^BUMP^^^

I don't know how much longer I can bear this stuff about JSmith in this website.

parting of the red sea, the parting of the Jordan river, some examples in the bible which scientifically cannot be explained, the Jordan river was parted at flood stages, yet the testimony is there.Exo 15:4 Chariots of Pharaoh and his force He hath cast into the sea; And the choice of his captains Have sunk in the Red Sea!Jos 3:14 And it cometh to pass, in the journeying of the people from their tents to pass over the Jordan, and of the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people, Jos 3:15 and at those bearing the ark coming in unto the Jordan, and the feet of the priests bearing the ark have been dipped in the extremity of the waters (and the Jordan is full over all its banks all the days of harvest) --
Jos 3:16 that the waters stand; those coming down from above have risen--one heap, very far above Adam the city, which is at the side of Zaretan; and those going down by the sea of the plain, the Salt Sea, have been completely cut off; and the people have passed through over-against Jericho; Jos 3:17 and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah stand on dry ground in the midst of the Jordan--established, and all Israel are passing over on dry ground till that all the nation hath completed to pass over the Jordan.
thus i believe in miracles over that of mans scientific beliefs

Quote: › some examples in the bible which scientifically cannot be explained,

Assumed that this really happened, what does it mean if science can not explain something? Does this automatically mean that such an event MUST have a divine cause?

I have a shelves full of old books that talk about giants, dwarfs, fighting Gods, Gods that cause thunder with their chariots and numerous events science might not be able to explain. So that all must have a divine cause as well?

It all seems funny to me when post modernists attempt to define everything in scientific terms.

Considering what they believe occurred in the beginning ...with the big bang and all that. This whole idea of a SINGULARITY which by definition is a BREAK DOWN of ALL scientific laws of physics.

This seems odd coming from people who don't believe miracles can happen. And what's a miracle?...Something that appears to break or transcend scientific laws of physics.

So according to atheistic, post modern scientists... even they're beginning is a "SUPERNATURAL" event since it breaks and transcends all laws of physics.

The whole argument that states nothing out side of science is real, seems to cut off the very branch it attempts to sit on.

I think that the last two post by Harrie and Christopher bring out some very good points. Well said!

I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread that I have yet to see one example of a miracle that contradicts science.

If some one can show one example, then let's hear it.

Greetings Rev2

Quote: › I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread that I have yet to see one example of a miracle that contradicts science. If some one can show one example, then let's hear it.

Well I believe there is one such example given on this very thread back on page 8 which I don't believe you have answered . It deals with translations of Egyptian Papyri .I might just repeat it and condense it with its interesting photos here.

Edit- Upon perousing of this thread I noticed I put a short summary of my "example " at the top of this very page.

Second edit Here below is what I wrote earlier as a request by Rev2 for a miracle conflicts with science example.

Quote: › From page 8 "I thought I might give Revelations Too an example where true religion and science aren't in harmony,with a disagreement between a "prophet" and Egyptologists. In 1835 Joseph Smith (the prophet) aquired some Egyptian papyri from a travelling salesman .J.S. being a prophet ,seer and revelator has the God given gift to translate all ancient manuscipts.This he proceded to do and blow me down if it didn't turn out to be written by Abraham himself .The account of what the Papyri say became the "Book of Abraham" part of the "Pearl of Great Price" and Mormon scripture. At roughly the same time Egyptologists were getting to grips with translating hieroglyphics .This came about from the discovery of the Rosetta stone (in 1799)that had the same message in Greek, Demotic and hieroglyphics.They worked out that hieroglyphics could consist of pictures that sound like a word ,like in English drawing a bee then a leaf to mean believe.There is a picture in The pearl of Great Price that Egyptologists accused Smith of altering ,a mans body should have a jackels head,and a bird should have a mans head.They also believed the papyri were an ordinary 0~200 AD funeral document Egyptologists got a chance to examine these papyri when in 1967 they were rediscovered in the metropolitan Museum of Art after they were thought to have been destroyed in the 1871 Chicago fire. They found out the reason for the "head" discrepency is that those parts of the original papyrus are missing and that translating the original papyrus with extra bits on the page not reproduced by Smith they discovered its an ordinary Egyptian funeral document from Thebes in upper Egypt called The book of breathings a later expansion of the Book of the dead. So here is an example of "true" religion and science not being in harmony. I regard it as a miracle that people can translate hieroglyphics with no training in the subject. There's a lot more to this story and if anyone wants to ask any questions or get thing clarified don't hesitate to ask. Also if anyone would also like to compare Smiths published drawing of the papyri and the original don't hesitate to ask and I'll post them.They can then get them assessed by their own Egytologist if they want to."

and here is the Egyptian Papyri as it appears in the Book of Abraham and the original papyri with translatable hieroglyphics

Greeting Mole,

If all of the original Papyri were found, can you produce all of the translations thereof?

Is this full translation available on the internet?

Regards,
RT

Quote: › It all seems funny to me when post modernists attempt to define everything in scientific terms. Considering what they believe occurred in the beginning ...with the big bang and all that. This whole idea of a SINGULARITY which by definition is a BREAK DOWN of ALL scientific laws of physics. This seems odd coming from people who don't believe miracles can happen. And what's a miracle?...Something that appears to break or transcend scientific laws of physics. So according to atheistic, post modern scientists... even they're beginning is a "SUPERNATURAL" event since it breaks and transcends all laws of physics. The whole argument that states nothing out side of science is real, seems to cut off the very branch it attempts to sit on.

That is an incorrect interpretation. What it actually says is that in such a singularity all the laws of physics that we know in this universe break down and have no meaning.

In other words, the system created in a singularity is not part of this universe, and thus will behave in manners that do not and cannot work within this universe. This is not to say that such a system does not have its own laws by which its actions can be understood.

Yes Thanks Nator . I was going to explain that the big bang is either unexplained as yet by science or unknowable . By unknowable I mean as an analogy knowing right now what is happening on a planet 200 light years away.We have no way of knowing but we don't claim supernatural things are happening there now.
Hasn't Hawkings come up with a non- god possible explanation for the big bang? I haven't caught up with it yet.

Quote: › If all of the original Papyri were found, can you produce all of the translations thereof? Is this full translation available on the internet?

I just googled "book of abraham" The first few results gave fairly good translations and explanations even our friend wikipedia was helpful.
You may be able to find a site that supports your viewpoint