RT is it possible to receive salvation outside the Mormon Church?
I realise Jesus has informed us that all the other churches are in error but does Jesus hold that against the practitioners in those churches?
Your question: "RT is it possible to receive salvation outside the Mormon Church?" is a fair question. I think for the dialogue and answer to be clearly understood it should be examined in clear perspective.
First one should examine and explore each person's clear definition of "being saved". In other words my definition when properly explained may be different than your definition or rerun's definition.
I think it might be appropriate for you and rerun to both first state your respective definitions of "being saved" and exactly what that comprises or constitutes. Once this common basis for respective understanding is established then I can better illustrate my answer.
You have responded with several issues relating to this topic. My time is rather limited, but as time permits I will respond and try to focus on a limited number at a time.
Rerun you said: “If you persevere in good works, you will get a good reward.”
According to your understanding what specifically is this reward?
You also taught: “If you live like the devil, you will get no reward. You will not lose your salvation, but you can be ashamed of not living to your potential as a child of God.
This is a serious matter, but your salvation does not hinge upon it.”
You also taught: “Our sanctification process has rewards and benefits in ADDITION to salvation.”
Would you kindly state what those specific “rewards” and “benefits” are?
Thank you in advance for your clear and understandable answers.
I asked:"So, are you saying that you reject any and all prophets that have lived after Jesus Christ and their prophesies issued or to be issued thereafter?"
You responded: “Basically, yes. However, I believe, according to the bible, that some prophecies are given even until now. If not, we would not be told to test all things.”
For my edification and clarity can you identify what prophets and prophesies you accept that were or are to be given after Christ died and what is your “cut off” date for those prophets and prophecies?
Quote: › I think it might be appropriate for you and rerun to both first state your respective definitions of "being saved" and exactly what that comprises or constitutes. Once this common basis for respective understanding is established then I can better illustrate my answer.
By saved I mean the situation that comprises and constitutes the situation you would hope to be in when you die,
If your time is limited and the answer to my question is another question can I suggest you just write back "Question unable to be answered to your satasfaction at this time"
Alternately can I suggest you flick some of our questions to you onto someone else in your church.I would hate to think we were missing out on God's truths due to your personal time constraints.
Quote: › rerun to both first state your respective definitions of "being saved" and exactly what that comprises or constitutes.
Eternal communion with God and Christ.
Eternal separation from God and Christ.
Quote: › According to your understanding what specifically is this reward? Would you kindly state what those specific “rewards” and “benefits” are?
1 Corinthians 3
6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Here if my proof text for my belief in rewards in the afterlife.
Notice in verse 15, if a person's work is good he gets a reward for services rendered. If a person's work is not acceptable, he gets no reward, only salvation. If you can show me otherwise, please do.
Now, I do not claim to know the exact nature of these rewards. I will not speculate but I can GUESS they are higher service in the kingdom of God. More responsibility, if you will.
Quote: › For my edification and clarity can you identify what prophets and prophesies you accept that were or are to be given after Christ died and what is your “cut off” date for those prophets and prophecies?
There is no cut-off date given in scripture. There will not be.
There are certain prophecies recorded in the NT. Agabus and Paul prophesied.
The exact prophecies are not really important. Only if they were fulfilled or not. There are many prophecies or words of wisdom given in local congregations for the purpose of edification. And they MUST agree with scripture or they are NOT from God.
Also, NONE of these are to introduce new doctrine or books. Look it up in the NT, it will show you the criterion for the "prophets". 100% accuracy. Without 100% accuracy, God has NOT spoken through that prophet, we are to ignore him.
Does Joseph Smith have a 100% track record for his "prophecies"?
Be truthful too. You know I have resources to disprove his "prophecies". I just want your answer, not the official LDS answer.
If JS would have given a prophecy that would NOT have introduced a slew of new books or writings or even controversial topics and doctrines, the church would probably have no problem with him.
But, for instance, the Book of Abraham has been discredited and refuted by even secular historians and Egyptologists as being a complete fabrication.
So, how could anyone possibly follow a man who has passed off a book containing the writings of a man as famous as Abraham and yet be found out that it is a complete HOAX?
How can anyone follow a man that does this?
And before you say this is off topic and refuse, yet again, to answer it, let me remind you that your eternal salvation demands you know the truthfulness of the teacher you are following. So YES it belongs under the "Requirements for Salvation" thread.
I mean, after all, you do want your leader to tell you the truth of salvation don't you?
Quote: › Also, NONE of these are to introduce new doctrine or books. Look it up in the NT, it will show you the criterion for the "prophets". 100% accuracy. Without 100% accuracy, God has NOT spoken through that prophet, we are to ignore him.
Quote: › "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
Quote: › And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
If I was giving marks for prophecy I might give more marks out of ten to the guy who said this (he died in 1844).
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
I know next to nothing about the American civil war but I believe it happened thusly so.Even beginning with a rebellion in south Carolina.
Just a few questions concerning this "prophecy".
Does Joseph Smith HAVE 100% prophetic accuracy?
Quote: › 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
So far, so good.
Had this been the only prophecy Joseph Smith made, I might rethink my stance about him.
Quote: › 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
Did the American Civil War lead other nations into battle?
Did the ACW START a snowball effect of war around the world?
Did the ACW begin the warring of many nations?
Quote: › 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called,
Sounds good again.
Quote: › and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations;
Did Great Britian enter into the ACW? AND, did GB call upon other nations after they entered into the ACW?
Quote: › and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
What are the only two nations involved, directly, in the ACW?
What other nations were included in the ACW?
Quote: › 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
Who can blame them?
DID slaves rise up against their masters?
Now, I came across this article on the web. Read it in it's entirety.
Quote: › Did Joseph Smith Correctly Predict the Civil War?
By Bill McKeever
According to 15th President Gordon B. Hinkley:
"Finally, what of Joseph Smith's prophecies? There were more than a few, and they were fulfilled. Among the most notable was the revelation on the Civil War. You are familiar with it; it was spoken on Christmas Day, 1832. There were many high-minded men and women who deplored the institution of slavery then common in the South, and there was much talk of abolition. But who but a prophet of God would have dared to say, thirty-nine years before it was to happen, that ‘war [would] be poured out upon all nations,' beginning 'at the rebellion of South Carolina,' and that 'the Southern States [would] be divided against the Northern States'? (D&C 87:1-3.) This remarkable prediction saw its fulfillment with the firing on Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor in 1861. How could Joseph Smith have possibly foreseen with such accuracy the event that was to come thirty-nine [sic] years after he spoke of it? Only by the spirit of prophecy which was in him." ("Praise to the Man," Ensign, Aug. 1983, p.6)
The War Between the States, otherwise known as the Civil War, had its official beginning on April 12, 1861, when Southern forces opened fire on Fort Sumter. It was at 4:30 a.m. that the first round of cannonballs screamed toward the fort located at the mouth of Charleston Harbor, South Carolina. Some 4,000 shells were hurled at the lonely garrison from what seemed like every direction. Thirty-six hours would pass before Major Robert Anderson would be forced to surrender. The South had its first victory.
Three days following the attack, President Abraham Lincoln called for 75,000 men to enlist in what many people thought would be a very short conflict. Four years and hundreds of thousands of casualties later, the Civil War would be over and President Lincoln would be dead.
Mormons contend that section 87 in the Doctrine and Covenants proves that their founder and first prophet, Joseph Smith, was called of God. Otherwise, how could Smith have possibly foretold this national tragedy as far back as December 25, 1832?
To assume that difficulties between the Northern and Southern states could not have been sensed long before Fort Sumter would be to assume incorrectly. Bruce Catton, a Civil War historian, states, "There had been many woeful misunderstandings between North and South in the years that led up to the Civil War" (The Civil War, pg.59).
As far back as 1832 rumblings of secession had threatened the Union. John C. Calhoun, a senator from South Carolina, feared Northern interference in the affairs of the southern states. Although he opposed secession, Calhoun did argue that the southern states could protect their interests by nullifying acts by the Federal government they considered to be unconstitutional.
Joseph Smith was aware of this discontent and mentioned it in the History of the Church (vol. 1, pg.301). He wrote, "The people of South Carolina, in convention assembled (in November), passed ordinances, declaring their state a free and independent nation...President Jackson issued his proclamation against this rebellion, called out a force sufficient to quell it, and implored the blessings of God to assist the nation to extricate itself from the horrors of the approaching and solemn crisis." On Christmas day, 1832, Smith claimed he received his "prophecy on the war of the rebellion."
Despite these warning signs, some insist that as early as 1832 no one but Joseph Smith could have known that the United States could be plunged into a civil war. The fact is, not far from Smith's Kirtland, Ohio headquarters, a newspaper called the Painesville Telegraph printed a story from the New York Courier and Enquirer entitled "The Crisis." The article spoke of the "probabilities of dismemberment" stemming from discontent in South Carolina and Georgia over states rights. It is interesting to note that the date of this article is Friday, December 21,1832, just four days before Smith received his alleged "prophecy."
Since nothing came about from this incident, some people might argue that Joseph Smith either jumped the prophetical gun or is predicting the wrong rebellion. Mormons, on the other hand, insist that Smith was a prophet because war eventually broke out about 29 years later.
A close look at Smith's prophecy discloses many problems. For one, Smith predicted that "war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place." Twice this phrase is mentioned in verses two and three of section 87. This prophecy never occurred. He also predicted famine, plague, earthquake, and a "chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made full end of all nations" (vs.6).
Certainly Smith's contemporaries believed this prophecy dealt with the Civil War. Two days after the bombing of Fort Sumter, Heber C. Kimball said, "In this country the North and the South will exert themselves against each other, and ere long the whole face of the United States will be in commotion, fighting one against another, and they will destroy their nationality" (Journal of Discourses 9:55). He then went on to blame this turmoil on the fact that the United States had not treated the Mormons properly.
On July 28, 1861, Brigham Young said the Civil War would not end until the work is accomplished and the "land is emptied" (Journal of Discourses 9:142,143).
Smith did say that the South would call upon Great Britain for assistance (vs.3) and that it, in turn, would call upon other nations for help. Although England did provide some supplies, it did not involve itself in the actual fighting. And England never had to call upon other nations for help in its defense.
Interestingly enough, Smith's prophecy might have come to pass had Great Britain followed through with a contract to provide the South with a number of ironclad ships. Says Catton, "...if these had been delivered they might have changed everything...the United States government plainly meant to go to war with Great Britain if they were actually delivered, and in the end the British government saw to it that they were kept at home" (The Civil War, pg.176).
This incident with the ironclads was not the first one that almost involved Great Britain directly in the conflict. On November 8, 1861, an American ship stopped at a Cuban port on its return from a tour of duty along the African coast. While in port Captain Charles Wilkes heard that two southern emissaries had evaded the blockade and were about to set sail from Havana on a British ship for England. Wilkes fired two rounds at the ship, boarded her and arrested the two. England was furious and dispatched 11,000 troops to Canada as well as put her navy on war alert. After an apology was made the incident was soon forgotten. You might say skilled diplomacy on the part of Washington and London prevented the fulfillment of Smith's prediction.
Catton believes that, had General Robert E. Lee been successful with his invasion of the North, England would have granted recognition of the Southern states and independence would have been forthcoming. However, this momentum took a drastic turn at Sharpsburg (Maryland) with the Battle of Antietam. A Southern victory could have occurred had not a copy of Lee's orders fallen into the hands of Northern General George B. McClellan. Between the dead and wounded, both sides lost approximately 12,000 men in a battle that ended in a draw.
Within days President Lincoln would issue his Emancipation Proclamation, officially making slavery (not just the preservation of the Union) an issue in the war. From then on, things looked bad for the Southern cause for no western country would oppose another country fighting against slavery. England would never give the South the recognition it needed.
In order to maintain the integrity of the Mormon prophet, some Latter-day Saints insist that this prophecy stretches beyond the Civil War and actually includes both world wars. To suggest such an interpretation shows how futile and frantic Mormon apologists can become. The prophecy clearly states these "wars" will begin with the rebellion of South Carolina. To say these world wars had any connection whatsoever with the rebellion at South Carolina defies reasoning.
Clearly, Doctrine and Covenants section 87 is another case of Joseph Smith boasting in his own strength and setting at naught the counsels of God (D&C 3:4).
This is bunk. A lot of tension had been brewing in South Carolina during the 40 years BEFORE the outbreak of was that this is at best, an EDUCATED GUESS.
However, that being said, Joseph Smith got quite a few things wrong with this prophecy for anyone to consider him a spokesperson for God.
Also, Mole, you should probably have started this on another thread. RT won't even read it because it doesn't belong here.
Yes I knew all this .I was just trying to upset you .I'll add a few bits later (visitors this weekend) that Bill McKeever didn't mention . I would still be inclined to give J.S. higher marks for some prophecy (in the future foretelling sense) than Malachi.
Hmmm... all this LDS stuff is boring me out of this forum.
Hi Oxy. Sorry if you find LDS stuff boring I know we look at this issue from different angles but I find LDS stuff fascinating. In fact Joseph Smith and George Washington are the only two Americans I have gone out of my way to read about .I only brought up Smiths prophecy to compare it to my perceived inadequacies of Malachi's prophecy,and to tease Rerun a bit.
Smith had this "revelation" on the 25/12/1832 but it was thought to be dodgy and wasn't actually published till 1851 it is included in the hand written copies of the "History of the Church" but not in the official publication (with no indication given) this happened two times.
On July 14 1832 Congress passed a tarrif act that Sth Carolina objected to and later declared the act null and void .President Jackson then alerted the nations troops and war was expected at any time .It was then that Smith made his "Civil War" prophecy .As pointed out by Rerun, Smith knew this, as the info also was printed in the Mormon paper "Evening and Morning star" January 1833 issue .Smith received the info too late to be put into the previous edition of the paper.
There is suppressed information about this prophecy that should mention that the USA will be invaded by Britain and the Govt will call on Smith for help. This info was suppressed because Smith was dead by the time of the Civil war .The info should appear between these two verses in D&C Section130
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.
12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
If only the LDS perspective was restricted to one or two threads I might be able to bear it, but it is everywhere. Its starting to look like an LDS defense forum.
If one day you start to loose some threads.... just don't ask me OK.
moleowner wrote (View Post): › RT is it possible to receive salvation outside the Mormon Church?
I realise Jesus has informed us that all the other churches are in error but does Jesus hold that against the practitioners in those churches?
Do we believe that one may receive salvation outside the Mormon Church? The answer is a resounding yes.
Answer my last post and then we can talk.
Thanks for your post quoted below:
[quote="Oxyrhynchus";p="51277"]If only the LDS perspective was restricted to one or two threads I might be able to bear it, but it is everywhere. Its starting to look like an LDS defense forum.
If one day you start to loose some threads.... just don't ask me OK.[/quote]
I don't know for certain who your moderator position post is directed at, but please observe that is not I, but others that have raised so many threads on this subject.
I for one would be grateful if the questions regarding my faith could be limited by others to just two or 3 threads at a time. (They ask so many different questions that I do not have time to appropriately answer all of them anyhow.) I for one think your suggestion is appropriate andwell taken. Thank you.
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