An all knowing, all powerful and good God takes the effort to sent His message to the people.
The people are not perfect, but willing to receive the message of their Lord, and as God is all powerful, He is able to assist them without hindering their free will. After all, they WANT to know God’s message or else they would not even bother to write it down. So every word in the Bible could be expected to be pure Divine inspiration concerning the meaning of it.

1) Still much of what is written down conflicts with the reality of scientific facts (for example Genesis and the flood, or a celestial tent-like dome resting on the circle of the earth) even of people who believed in Christ, as many of the early Western scientists were indeed Christians. So they had the holy spirit to guide them, but still went wrong when they tried to interpret the reality around them.

2) A powerful and all knowing good God takes the effort to bring people His divine message, but lets topics like slavery slip in that had a grave effect on followers as it seems like God does not mind slavery and even helps by providing laws concerning the pricing (women are cheaper than men) and punishing of slaves.

3) Halfway through the book, the laws suddenly change. It is completely all right now to pick up sticks on a Sabbath and eat pork, while that first seemed important enough to stone people to death for.

4) The first people God created committed a crime against God’s law. God created His whole system in such way that all generations to come would inherit a sinful nature, caused by that crime. That sinful nature prevents you from seeing reality as it is. After several thousanths of years, God in the flesh comes to earth to take the punishment instead of the people.
But than He asks Himself if it is really necessary to take this punishment, and tells Himself that not His, but His will needs to be done, and later when He is punished He asks why He has forsaken Himself.
After God died and lived on again, the people still have a sinful nature, but do not need to literally obey the older laws any longer, but need to live by them in the spirit of the laws, although some laws don’t need to be obeyed at all anymore.

5) Although all people who opened their hearts to Christ are expected to be guided by the Holy Spirit to help them interpret the Bible, even with this Holy Spirit they can’t agree on the interpretation of this Divine inspired book, with as result that there are many competing groups within Christianity, accusing each other of not being true Christians and claiming they are the one and only true Christians.

6) Because of our inherited sinful nature, our interpretation of reality is warped as we are without the help of the Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit only helps you to see the truth when you open your heart to Christ. But if you can’t see the undistorted reality, you can’t see the truth in Christ so you can’t accept Him to begin with. If you do not accept Christ you will suffer forever.


Can somebody help me to understand this? If not consider me lost forever.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Can somebody help me to understand this? If not consider me lost forever.

I think Rerun has done a lot to try to help you already. I am also willing to join him in going through these issues again if you so desire, but with me I will only deal with one question at a time. It doesn't mean that we cannot refer to a general basis though. So if you want to do that, choose one question and stick with it until you feel it is fully explored before going on to another question.

You wrote "If not consider me lost forever", what you mean by the word "lost" is a spiritual issue. So, in the end it is a faith issue, not a scientific one. If you seek the latter, someone else may be able to help.

Thanks, I will start with for me the most important one, as all other questions will hinge on that.

6) Because of our inherited sinful nature, our interpretation of reality is warped as we are without the help of the Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit only helps you to see the truth when you open your heart to Christ. But if you can’t see the undistorted reality, you can’t see the truth in Christ so you can’t accept Him to begin with. If you do not accept Christ you will suffer forever.

So how will you ever see the truth?

Dear Harrie,

You said: Thanks, I will start with for me the most important one, as all other questions will hinge on that.

6) Because of our inherited sinful nature, our interpretation of reality is warped as we are without the help of the Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit only helps you to see the truth when you open your heart to Christ. But if you can’t see the undistorted reality, you can’t see the truth in Christ so you can’t accept Him to begin with. If you do not accept Christ you will suffer forever.

So how will you ever see the truth?


You claim that we inherit the sinful nature of Adam and the power of sin and because of this our interpretation of reality is somehow warped.

Are we punished for Adam’s transgression or for our own sins?

Other than partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, can you list any other sins that Adam committed which would designate him as a man of sinful nature? If you cannot, then are you guilty of bearing false witness?

Can you even blame the actions of Cain on Adam? Or does the truth lie in the fact that Cain of his own power of agency or choice hearkened not unto the spirit of God, but hearkened unto Satan and chose of his own free will his own damnation?

Can you blame Adam for the fact that Abel chose to be righteous? Or was that a free will choice that Abel made to hearken unto the spirit of God and choose righteousness?

Ask yourself these questions regarding the choice that Adam made.

Does it deny you of any of God’s promises?

Does it deny you the God given gift of agency or choice?

Does it deny you the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Does it deny you any of the gifts of the spirit?

Does it deny you the blessings of the resurrection?

Does it deny you the blessings of the atonement?

Does it deny you salvation in the kingdom of God?

Does it deny you the opportunity of being a joint heir with Christ?

Does it deny you the opportunity of being a partaker of the divine nature?

Does it in any way deny you the opportunity of partaking of “the tree of life”?

Does it deny you the opportunity of receiving the same glory that Christ received?

In short, is there any blessing that you are denied because of Adam?

You imply that it was a bad thing for Adam to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. If this is so please explain what the result would have been if Adam had not partaken of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge and never had the eyes of his understanding opened to know the difference between good and evil?

Was it God’s plan that Adam and Eve should have remained in the garden of Eden forever?

Would ignorance have then been the “standard” for Christianity?

Would Christ’s plan have been fulfilled or frustrated? Can you give a clear answer to these questions?

My question was “If they had not partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, could the full plan of God the father and Jesus Christ have been complete or fulfilled?

My answer is, we’ll never know unless we search the bible to know what the clear plan of God was for us before the foundations of the world were even laid. What is your answer?

Maybe I should ask my question in yet another manner. Can you clearly tell me what the end result would be if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the tree of Knowledge? Think about this and list all the ramifications and results if they had chosen otherwise. I would be very curious to hear your answers.

I have always maintained that partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge was an absolute necessity or an essential part in the fulfillment of Christ’s original plan of atonement and salvation.

If you or anyone can show me by scriptures in the bible, any other way that the atonement could be fulfilled without the “fall ” please so enlighten and edify my understanding. I am eager to hear of this perfect alternate plan of salvation.

Don’t be so eager to cast too many apples or figs or other fruit at Adam. He only ate one!

What a sinful nature! Can you imagine a sin as horrible as eating a fig or other fruit! Yeah right!

Can you name even (1) one other transgression or sin committed by Adam?

Can Adam say the same about you?

Can you tell me the fate of Adam or the “Ancient of days”?


Give me a break! Don’t you really think God has forgiven Adam thousands of years ago for eating one fruit ???

Also for your information The account in Genesis 3 does NOT SAY Adam rebelled against God. So many say otherwise that sometimes people think that is what the scripture quoted actually says, when in fact it does not.

Last time I searched the scriptures, Christ was very loving, gracious and quick to forgive.

I have forgiven Adam. Have you?

If you choose to disagree with my post, I would like to hear a point by point response showing scripture based doctrine to support your views. Have a great day.

Regards,

revelations too:

Quote: › “Are we punished for Adam’s transgression or for our own sins?”

I was told that we inherited a sinful nature that was caused by Adam.

Quote: › “Other than partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, can you list any other sins that Adam committed which would designate him as a man of sinful nature? If you cannot, then are you guilty of bearing false witness?”

Quite frankly I don’t belief that there ever was a real Adam. But if there was I would not regard him as a man of sinful nature, judging from what we know. But that seems to be the doctrine with some Christians. You obviously have other ideas?

Quote: › “Does it deny you of any of God’s promises? Does it deny you the God given gift of agency or choice? Does it deny you the gift of the Holy Ghost? Does it deny you any of the gifts of the spirit? Does it deny you the blessings of the resurrection? Does it deny you the blessings of the atonement? Does it deny you salvation in the kingdom of God? Does it deny you the opportunity of being a joint heir with Christ? Does it deny you the opportunity of being a partaker of the divine nature? Does it in any way deny you the opportunity of partaking of “the tree of life?”

I don’t think that is my point. When you do not belief in Christ, the Holy Spirit will not guide you and you might very well interpret reality the wrong way, is that your opinion too?

Quote: › “My question was “If they had not partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, could the full plan of God the father and Jesus Christ have been complete or fulfilled?”

Probably not as it would not have been needed? That would be very interesting though. God creates us and already planned that Adam and Eve would sin so He could come back later in the flesh?

Quote: › “Maybe I should ask my question in yet another manner. Can you clearly tell me what the end result would be if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the tree of Knowledge? Think about this and list all the ramifications and results if they had chosen otherwise. I would be very curious to hear your answers.”

I’m not a theist, but I guess that the coming of Christ would have been a bit useless? We would not need to be saved.

Quote: › “I have always maintained that partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge was an absolute necessity or an essential part in the fulfillment of Christ’s original plan of atonement and salvation.”

Than God would not be good, wouldn’t He? Than we were just a pawn in God’s game?

Quote: › “Don’t be so eager to cast too many apples or figs or other fruit at Adam. He only ate one!”

Like I said before; I don’t belief the whole story.

Quote: › “Give me a break! Don’t you really think God has forgiven Adam thousands of years ago for eating one fruit ???”

I asked a few, to me, serious questions. No need to get angry or emotionally. I don’t even belief there is a God!

Quote: › “Also for your information The account in Genesis 3 does NOT SAY Adam rebelled against God. So many say otherwise that sometimes people think that is what the scripture quoted actually says, when in fact it does not.”

I think your post brings us already to the next point:

5) Although all people who opened their hearts to Christ are expected to be guided by the Holy Spirit to help them interpret the Bible, even with this Holy Spirit they can’t agree on the interpretation of this Divine inspired book, with as result that there are many competing groups within Christianity, accusing each other of not being true Christians and claiming they are the one and only true Christians.

Quote: › “Last time I searched the scriptures, Christ was very loving, gracious and quick to forgive.”

Perhaps, but if Christ is God in the flesh He would be a bit less loving, gracious and quick to forgive.

Quote: › “I have forgiven Adam. Have you?”

I never blamed Adam. I blame evolution for our behavior.

Quote: › “If you choose to disagree with my post, I would like to hear a point by point response showing scripture based doctrine to support your views. Have a great day.”

Have a great day too...

Harrie wrote (View Post): › Thanks, I will start with for me the most important one, as all other questions will hinge on that. 6) Because of our inherited sinful nature, .... So how will you ever see the truth?

Harrie, I'm not sure what you mean by warped interpretation of reality, but take a read of this passage:

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.


Most christians will tell you that there is no way that they could have become believers on their own. Instead they would say that all had help from the Holy Spirit.

Psychologically we make the decision, but retrospectively we begin to realise all the places where He had helped us. That is, He helped us while we were not believers.

Oxy,

Quote: › Harrie, I'm not sure what you mean by warped interpretation of reality,

I think Rerun talked about that several times. Non-Christians often don't understand the Bible as their perception and mind is warped by their inherited sinful nature as they need to do without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Quote: › Most christians will tell you that there is no way that they could have become believers on their own. Instead they would say that all had help from the Holy Spirit.

But than the decision if you will become a believer or not depends on the Holy Spirit?
After all, there is a time that one does not belief at all, and in that case the Bible does not make much sense, so without enough help of the Holy Spirit you will not be able to understand it.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › But than the decision if you will become a believer or not depends on the Holy Spirit?

In a nutshell, it is a cooperation.

BTW R2's is LSD/mormon which is not of our faith. Do not get the two confused, nor mix them up Harrie. If R2 wants to argue this, I suggest he start his own thread. I see his post(s) as counter productive on this thread.

Oxy.
I said: “But than the decision if you will become a believer or not depends on the Holy Spirit?”

Quote: › “In a nutshell, it is a cooperation.”

It is a cooperation that at least requires a beginning of faith, doesn’t it?
How will you be able to get to that beginning of faith without the Holy Spirit?

I can’t see anything divine inspired in the whole Bible, I even see lots and lots of things that indicate a rather primitive and very human tribal culture, where slavery and stoning is part of every day life and absolutely normal.
I understand very well that the culture of those days was very different from today, but my problem is that I have this idea that if the Bible is inspired by a good God, that God would give a strong message that slavery and stoning would be wrong, instead of simply adapting to the ways of the people. And that God would be all knowing and able to inspire to write down words that are valid for all people and all times, as a guide to their lives. To me, they most definitely are not.

That I can’t understand the Bible, I am told, is also caused by my mind that is warped by my inherited sinful nature. I am exposing my mind to Christians on a Christian forum, so it’s not that I’m hiding from God’s message.
But I can’t simply choose to disbelief science and start to belief the Bible, I need to be convinced, and without the holy spirit such might very well be impossible as I simply can’t understand it.
It is exactly the same as if I asked you to simply belief science and forget the Bible; I bet you can’t?

Quote: › “BTW R2's is LSD/mormon which is not of our faith. Do not get the two confused, nor mix them up Harrie. If R2 wants to argue this, I suggest he start his own thread. I see his post(s) as counter productive on this thread.”

As long as Revelation too considers himself Christian, and I think he does, he is welcome to this thread and I will read his posts and respond.

Can you imagine my confusion that obviously the Holy Spirit does not guide all willing Christians? Why not? How will you know you follow the right kind of Christianity?

Harrie,

Quote: › But I can’t simply choose to disbelief science and start to belief the Bible,

No one is asking that of you.

Quote: › and without the holy spirit such might very well be impossible as I simply can’t understand it.

Belief and understanding are two separate things, Harrie.

Many people understand the gospel but do not believe it. Many people believe the gospel but do not understand it.

Quote: › As long as Revelation too considers himself Christian, and I think he does, he is welcome to this thread and I will read his posts and respond.

Your not getting it Harrie.

Mormonism is not Christianity. They are two separate belief systems. Irreconcilable. Forever at odds.

Search the net for differences between orthodox Christianity and mormonism and you will see a big difference.

Quote: › Can you imagine my confusion that obviously the Holy Spirit does not guide all willing Christians?

He does guide all willing Christians. Mormons are not Christian Harrie. The Holy Spirit will not guide a non-Christian.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › It is a cooperation that at least requires a beginning of faith, doesn’t it? How will you be able to get to that beginning of faith without the Holy Spirit?

What ever "beginning of faith" is, I know nothing of it. All I know is this:

1. hear and understand the Gospel message
2. exercise your faith and believe the meaning of the Gospel
3. confess with your mouth what you believe.

The Gospel message is very simple. It is meant to be simple.

Everyone has the capacity for faith, it is part and parcel of what makes us human beings. Any so called prior faith or what ever prerequisites you want to put in front of the Gospel are just excuses in order for you to reject it.

Harrie wrote (View Post): › As long as Revelation too considers himself Christian, and I think he does, he is welcome to this thread and I will read his posts and respond.

You seemed confused when you started the thread, but now you sound defiant. Did I misunderstand? If so, why don't you just go to a Mormon/LSD forum?

Just a warning before I go, a christian is not a christian because he says so, whether R2 or Rerun or Oxy, let the bible define it:

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Harrie,

Quote: › As long as Revelation too considers himself Christian, and I think he does, he is welcome to this thread and I will read his posts and respond.

If you can consider RT a Christian, then you are not being intellectually honest. You cannot lump all who say they are Christian into one lump and expect to get anywhere.

I disagree with RT on multiple issues. I do not believe that a mormon/LDS is an orthodox Christian. And neither does the bible. Or the church in general.

You do have to distinguish between the two.

oxy

Quote: › “What ever "beginning of faith" is, I know nothing of it. All I know is this: 1. hear and understand the Gospel message 2. exercise your faith and believe the meaning of the Gospel 3. confess with your mouth what you believe.”

Suppose you hear something but you don’t know if it is true or not, what do you do?
Could you tell me the Gospel message in just a few sentences and in your own words?

Quote: › “Everyone has the capacity for faith, it is part and parcel of what makes us human beings.”

I agree, I think you are right. But is that the right faith? You do realize that faith in itself often leads to very wrong assumptions and does not need to be true at all? Consider all those countless Gods humanity made up during its existence?

Quote: › “Any so called prior faith or what ever prerequisites you want to put in front of the Gospel are just excuses in order for you to reject it.”

Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, want to reject such beautiful promisses?
Simply belief in Christ and all my sins are forgiven and I will always exist in a fantastic world, all criminals I have seen get away with crime, will be punished after all, and all suffering forgotten, and we humans are the reason God created the universe.
Instead I reject that and choose to belief a system where humans do not take any special position at all, where you do not exist in any way after you die, so never see deceised loved ones again, where criminals might get away with their crimes, where suffering is real and will not be forgotten.
To reject Christ and accept the nothingness I must be a masochist perhaps, don’t you think? OR, and that is what I think, I can’t accept Christ as Christianity does not add up and is not even consistent with itself.

Please explain the concept of trinity for me in your own words, for example.

I said: “As long as Revelation too considers himself Christian, and I think he does, he is welcome to this thread and I will read his posts and respond.”

Quote: › “You seemed confused when you started the thread, but now you sound defiant. Did I misunderstand? If so, why don't you just go to a Mormon/LSD forum?”

You are asking me to exclude a member of this forum from this discussion, or at least I should not listen to this man or take him seriously, as he is supposed to be a non-Christian.
To me, all Christians seem to have their own personal version of Christianity, some belief in guided evolution, some belief in a literal creation, etc. At this moment I don’t think any of it is true as Christianity does not seem logical in itself. Perhaps Mormonism makes more sense, I simply don’t know and therefore see no reason to shut anyone out beforehand. Perhaps a matter of fair hearing?

Quote: › “Just a warning before I go, a christian is not a christian because he says so, whether R2 or Rerun or Oxy,”

No, but to me that does not matter much. To me it matters if there is a system that makes sense, not if that is ‘true’ Christian or not.

Quote: › “Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.”

This is one part of the Bible that indeed sounds wise to me.
You and Rerun are trying to shut Revelations Too out of this discussion, that is the fruit I see and wonder about. Why?

Rerun:

Quote: › “Many people understand the gospel but do not believe it. Many people believe the gospel but do not understand it.”

Not that you need to understand all the ins and outs, but in order to belief something, a certain understanding is needed it seems to me?
Or else your faith might not be based on reality but soley on hope and comfort?

Quote: › “Your not getting it Harrie.”

Haha! I realize there is much I don’t really get, but that is why I am here...

Quote: › “Mormonism is not Christianity. They are two separate belief systems. Irreconcilable. Forever at odds. Search the net for differences between orthodox Christianity and mormonism and you will see a big difference. “

It could very well be that Mormonism or LSD is a different belief system than yours.
That means that at least one system must be wrong, doesn’t it?
And why should LSD be wrong and yours right, only because they are different?
There is always a difference between truth and untruth.

How should I know which one of you is right, when all you can show me is the differences between your systems, and nothing else?

Imagine there is a piece of wood, and two people claim to know how long it is; one claims it is 2 foot 4”, and the other claims it’s 2 foot 6”. Both will use the argument that they are right as there is a difference of 2”.
One will claim that the wood must be 2 ft 4” as that is 2” shorter than the other claims, while the other claims it is 2ft 6” as that is 2” longer.
But if you were to measure the piece of wood, it might be 2 foot 5” or even 3 foot 3” or anything else. Don’t you agree?
THAT is how I see such discussions among theists, while scientists don’t start to claim before they measure it.
(I would hope you adapt the metric system one day, where 1 meter is simply 100cm...)

Quote: › “He does guide all willing Christians. Mormons are not Christian Harrie. The Holy Spirit will not guide a non-Christian.”

If the Holy Spirit will not guide a non-Christian, how will a non-Christian ever find true Christianity? And if they can’t find true Christianity they will be punished in hell for something they are not responsible for?
Don’t you agree that you can only make a correct decision when you are able to see the facts well enough? So why should a God God punish us with hell for not seeing the truth, as we all inherited a sinful nature to begin with?

Harrie,

Quote: › Not that you need to understand all the ins and outs, but in order to belief something, a certain understanding is needed it seems to me?

Yes.

Quote: › Or else your faith might not be based on reality but soley on hope and comfort?

Possibly.

Quote: › How should I know which one of you is right, when all you can show me is the differences between your systems, and nothing else?

Then don't assume we have the same belief system and don't treat us a having the same belief system, ok?

If you want Christian answers don't go to a Mormon/LDS.

If you want Mormon/LDS answers go to a Mormon/LDS. Start a new thread if you wish.

Quote: › Imagine there is a piece of wood,

With Mormonism/LDS, it is just not that easy. There is too much conflicting doctrine between Christianity and Mormonism/LDS.

Quote: › If the Holy Spirit will not guide a non-Christian, how will a non-Christian ever find true Christianity?

I need to use a better word than guide. Lead probably fits better.

The Holy Spirit will open a non-believers eyes if that person is receptive to the gospel. Honest seekers will always be brought to the truth if they want it.

Quote: › And if they can’t find true Christianity they will be punished in hell for something they are not responsible for?

A person is consigned to hell for their own sins. Not just rejecting Christ.