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Bringing up your children in light and truth
 
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moleowner
36341 Points

New Zealand
PostYou have posted in this forum: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:21 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Rerun don't forget the everlasting covenant D&C Sec 132 was superceded in 1890 with the manifesto .So although you don't practise polygamy you are not cut off from God.(bet that's a load of worry off your mind)
All the anti black statement by Mormons are not in their Scriptures so can't be claimed to have come from God and are just "normal racist" comments.

So when Rev2 says

"Has God ever denied anyone the right and privilege of divine personal revelation, witness or testimony to anyone who faithfully seeks answers?"

the answer is no ....or is it Question I don't know if being cursed by God would debar you from any of the above privelages but its bad news for you if you happen to be a Lamanite, Red Indian to me , or probably a native American to you .The book of Mormon (the current up to date one) says

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

and
Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

but don't worry Rerun if you happen to be an Indian there is hope on the horizon.

2Nephi30:5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.(they were to become white and delightsome .This has changed sometime in the last 30 years)

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rerun7378
29021 Points

USA US Pennsylvania
PostYou have posted in this forum: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:17 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Mole,

The more I try to understand mormonism, the more confusing it becomes.

I actually have Native American ancestry. I think about, if you please, 1/8.

So then, 1/8 of me is condemned and the other 7/8 isn't?

Mass of confusion.

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Revelations Too
75961 Points

USA
PostYou have posted in this forum: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:53 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

rerun7378 wrote (View Post): › Doctrine & Covenants / Section 132
Revelation through Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded on July 12, 1843. History of the Church 5:501-7.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines-
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?
12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment-that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them-Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths-then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal lives-to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins-from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph-which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.
36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.
37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.
43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a vow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.
44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.
45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.
46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.
48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.
50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.
56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.
57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory.
58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

Notice the bold areas. They claim that God ordained polygamy. He did not.

RT, you defend a horrible man. You defend a horrible religion. And you do this with a clear conscience. Horrible.


Dear Rerun,

It would appear by the tenor of your response that you might make a good likely candidate as one of the mob members of the Carthage, IL June 27th 1844 variety. What do you think? Question Idea

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rerun7378
29021 Points

USA US Pennsylvania
PostYou have posted in this forum: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:52 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

RT,

Quote: › It would appear by the tenor of your response that you might make a good likely candidate as one of the mob members of the Carthage, IL June 27th 1844 variety.


Quote: › What do you think?


I think you have no leg to stand on. Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

I have not been the only one to show you that either. Many other Christians continually point out the absurdity of your belief system.

Your stubbornness to repent of the madness called Mormonism/LDS is absolutely unbelievable.

To each his own I guess

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moleowner
36341 Points

New Zealand
PostYou have posted in this forum: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:26 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

And just for everyones interest here is the Carthage jail Joseph Smith was murdered in.I stand to be corrected but J.Smith was the first American religious leader to be murdered and they had to wait till 1965 for the second (Malcolm X ).I agree with Rev2 on his Mob sentiments,but not the specifics of Rerun being a candidate.Us Agnostics and Athiests look a bit smuggly upon these incidents as our beliefs don't seem to cause these problems.

Umm.... Rev2 whats your definition of a false prophet ?



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rerun7378
29021 Points

USA US Pennsylvania
PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:16 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Mole,

Quote: › I agree with Rev2 on his Mob sentiments,but not the specifics of Rerun being a candidate.


Well, thank you Mole. I never have been a fan of the mob rules mentality. The song, but not the mentality.

Quote: › Us Agnostics and Athiests look a bit smuggly upon these incidents as our beliefs don't seem to cause these problems.


Come now Mole. What havoc did Mr. Stalin cause? http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

One atheist caused more deaths than all the religions of all time.

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moleowner
36341 Points

New Zealand
PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:26 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

I'll admit Stalin is an A grade ratbag .But what he did was probably done to further his view of how communism should be promoted and protected.It wasn't done in the name of Atheism or Agnosticism.

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rerun7378
29021 Points

USA US Pennsylvania
PostYou have posted in this forum: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:20 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Mole,

Quote: › But what he did was probably done to further his view of how communism should be promoted and protected.It wasn't done in the name of Atheism or Agnosticism.


One of the pillars of communism is atheism.

I like your adjective selection. We say grade A back here though. Smile

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moleowner
36341 Points

New Zealand
PostYou have posted in this forum: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:02 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Rerun wrote
Quote: › One of the pillars of communism is atheism.





It always amazes me people who equate Communism with Atheism.Communism is an economic theory.It is conceivable that the majority of people in America could think Communism is a good idea and vote in a communist Govt.It doesn't then follow that they would then suppress religion.I can't see any problem with a person being a communist and a Christian ,I imagine there is any amount of these people in particular say Sth America.Communists that suppress religion are probably not true communists in the same way the Inquasition practitioners were not true Christians.People might think that Christianity is the opiate of the people but you could well be a capitalist and think the same thing.

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Harrie
43266 Points

Netherlands NL Limburg
PostYou have posted in this forum: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:50 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Mole:
Quote: › “It always amazes me people who equate Communism with Atheism.Communism is an economic theory.”


Completely agree: you can have a communistic theist society and a capitalistic @theist society, no problem at all. Communism itself does not exclude theism, and capitalism itself does not exclude atheism.
Leaders might choose theism or atheism as a means to achieve power and suppress people, depending on the circumstances, they rarely care very deeply about such things.
I think the link between communism and @theism might be caused by Marx and Lenin, who shoved @theism in together with communism, and this was copied by many communists states, but indeed communism itself is solely an economic model.

Being an @theist I strongly resent outlawing or suppressing theism by force. @theism should be accepted by free will and conviction and never by force.

I don’t belief that atheists are morally inferior to theists, you can find assholes of every walk of life.

But of course nobody likes a killer on his team Wink
There is some doubt though that Stalin with his highest kill score was a ‘genuine’ @theist, an example from:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Stalin_an_atheist

“S.Alliluyeva: In father's library, between other books, were few tomes of "Christ". It was history of Christ written by vox populist Morozov. I said to my father: "But Christ didn't exist!" and he answered "Oh no, Christ, surely existed.”

But no doubt at least Stalin was ambiguous at best about religion as he indeed is quoted to deny the existence of God. If he did believe in Christ, that must have caused some friction.
His daughter defected to the Christian USA, so that might have moved her to deny her father was an @theist, while in reality he might have never said that Christ existed, we will never know that for sure and have only Svetlana’s word that Stalin believed in Christ.
And perhaps Stalin only meant to say that he believed that Jesus once existed, which is quite different from Jesus being the son of God or God in the flesh.

No matter what, Stalin was a giant ass hole, @theist or not.


Many Christians love to point out that Hitler was an @theist as he indeed disliked Christianity; he thought Paul had twisted Jesus’ words.

But that definitely made not an @theist out of Hitler!

Hitler: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".

And although he was not a real Christian as an adult, he still was a theist, Hitler did belief in God:
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2”

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8


And Hitler too was of course an unmistakable giant ass hole.
And here too, I think Hitler’s theism had little to do with all that, just power and madness.



One out of three leaders can’t handle power, and two out of three people blindly follow their leader, regardless of religion or economic system: and that is not a very good base for success I’m afraid.

Check out the experiments of Stanly Milgram and Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment for more detail, I think it is extremely interesting and valuable.

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rerun7378
29021 Points

USA US Pennsylvania
PostYou have posted in this forum: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:36 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Harrie,

Quote: › I don’t belief that atheists are morally inferior to theists, you can find assholes of every walk of life.


Who is saying this?????

What is wrong? Someone points out that more death and tyranny as caused by an atheist than all of the theists that ever lived and now you are upset?

Quote: › I think the link between communism and @theism might be caused by Marx and Lenin, who shoved @theism in together with communism, and this was copied by many communists states, but indeed communism itself is solely an economic model.


And WHO is basically the founder of communism? Marx.

I don't know where my post went. I had a link to a site that showed that communism is indeed intrinsically atheistic. Here it is again.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/communism.htm

But before you bite my head off for saying that atheism IS communism, I want to say this:

I don't think, at all, that atheists are communists and communists are atheists.

But, Joseph Stalin was an especially vicious god hater in every sense of the word. He did everything in his power to enforce that as well.

Quote: › There is some doubt though that Stalin with his highest kill score was a ‘genuine’ @theist, an example from:


An atheist can most certainly believe that Jesus Christ was a real, historical individual and yet NOT believe that He was divine in any sense of the word. This link proves nothing.

And now for Marx.


"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions."

Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

As you can see here, Marx believes religion needs to be abolished. He does a lot of double talk in this quote to be sure. But he does advocate the abolishment of religion. Keep the people comfortable without the dogmas of religion.

But, what of these dogmas of religion? Do not all belief systems have a central creed?

Atheism has as part of it's creed, there is no god in any shape or form.

Is this not atheistic dogma? So, where does Marx's double talk end? He essentially stands for nothing. He uses the masses to overthrow the leaders so the masses can appoint new leaders. Then the masses overthrow those leaders and appoint new leaders. A vicious cycle.

Communism, as formulated by Karl Marx, and enforced by Lenin and Stalin, does indeed stand upon a premise of atheism.

To mention Hitler is to sidestep the issue.

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Harrie
43266 Points

Netherlands NL Limburg
PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:06 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Me:” I don’t belief that atheists are morally inferior to theists, you can find assholes of every walk of life.”
Quote: › “What is wrong? Someone points out that more death and tyranny as caused by an atheist than all of the theists that ever lived and now you are upset?”


I am not upset at all, actually. If I would be upset I would have written it in bold with an explanation mark or three, with perhaps a few of these guys: Evil or Very Mad
Maybe a nice Internet feature would be if the pressure we use while typing would be visible to the one that reads it? You would have been able to see a very low and relaxed key pressure.

It is simply that this link between killing and theism/@theism often pops up from both sides, and I don’t belief that there is a link. Meaning that I don’t think theism in itself leads to killing nor @theism in itself leads to killing. Although both can be used as a tool to kill and that this phenomena leads to those assumptions at both @theist and theist sides. It remains true that some philosophies are easier to abuse than others, for example: Buddhists seem a bit harder to motivate to use violence


Quote: › “I had a link to a site that showed that communism is indeed intrinsically atheistic. Here it is again. "http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/communism.htm"


Thanks, that indeed indicates that @theism might be part of the communism package. I have always seen it as an economic model, and it easily could be. The connection between communism and @theism seems rather arbitrary. But there again; I’m not a communist and not that interested in communism.

Quote: ›
“I don't think, at all, that atheists are communists and communists are atheists.”

We completely agree on that. They CAN be, but don’t NEED to be.


Quote: › “But, Joseph Stalin was an especially vicious god hater in every sense of the word. He did everything in his power to enforce that as well.”


Sure, I have no reason to think otherwise.
On the other hand you could ask yourself how it was possible for him to do what he did. After all he didn’t kill all those people by himself. In fact, if nobody had obeyed Stalin he would have been completely powerless. And that mechanism is to me much more interesting than a derailed tyrant on his own.
Tyrants are dangerous only for the fact that humans have a tendency to blindly obey and follow leaders.


Quote: › “An atheist can most certainly believe that Jesus Christ was a real, historical individual and yet NOT believe that He was divine in any sense of the word. This link proves nothing.”


I think you missed my: “And perhaps Stalin only meant to say that he believed that Jesus once existed, which is quite different from Jesus being the son of God or God in the flesh.”


Quote: › “Do not all belief systems have a central creed? Atheism has as part of it's creed, there is no god in any shape or form. Is this not atheistic dogma?”


This is an interesting and valid question. I can only give you my personal view on that, keep in mind that this is probably not valid for all @theists, and I do not care about Marx one bit, only the question his remarks caused you to ask.

To me, the big difference between theism and @theism is the degree of proof, the degree of evidence. It seems like an @theist and a theist approach reality from opposite directions. For a theist the possibility that a Deity could exist is enough to assume the true existence of that Deity, or often not even assume, but to be convinced of that beyond any doubt.
An @theist refuses to belief in anything that can’t be detected in any way without a reason that is based on facts that require such existence. This to avoid a wrong model of reality as that way there are numerous ways to get lost; hence the numerous religious systems and numerous Gods humanity has known.

And now we could discuss what is a fact and what not. And again, I have my own views on all of that and can’t speak for others.
I think I have discussed this before: the only fact we can all be 100% sure of, is that we exist. So, YOU know that you exist, but you do not know for 100% sure if I do not only exist in your mind. There is no way to prove that to yourself is there? After all, you also dream about people, and those people only exist in your mind?
In fact, you do not even know for 100% certainty that the world around you exists outside of your mind. Even your senses and the shape of your body do not need to be real, and could exist only in your mind.
So all you got is your own mind, THAT is the ONLY 100% certain fact you have.
From there you need to explore reality, and from the you start to assume things.
And I indeed assume that my body exists outside of my mind, that my senses indeed connect my mind to a world outside of my body, and that there are beings like me in that world, each with a mind of their own, existing outside of my mind.
In general we call that facts, but they are not 100% certain facts to me; I assume it as there is no valid reason not to assume the reality of it.

To be able for me to belief in a God in a similar way I belief in the reality of my own body, I need a reason why I should assume the existence of this being that can’t even be detected in a way I can detect the world around me, be it direct or indirect.

So perhaps @theists start from doubting, have a natural tendency to skepticism, while theists start from believing and have a natural tendency to acceptance. It might be no more than a mindset. Still, we both are convinced that this mindset is important for survival, don’t we?

The danger for a theist is that he might accept the existence of an undetectable being that is not real.
The danger for an @theist is that he might reject the existence of an undetectable being that is real.

I estimate that the chances that something undetectable and unfounded exists are much smaller than the other way around. And that is why I am an @theist.

Quote: › “To mention Hitler is to sidestep the issue.”

Not at all: Stalin leads to Hitler, as Hitler is in the Western world the model of all evil and therefore a nice example. And he was unmistakably on the theist team, haha! Wink

But I give you this, Stalin does have a higher kill score than Hitler, who did rather poorly in comparison.
Unfortunately @theist Stalins and theist Hitlers will always be with us, but it is the people that give those assholes power. Without followers they are completely helpless and harmless.
And all of this has nothing to do with @theism or theism.


By the way, by the fruit one recognizes the tree; who had the highest kill score in the Bible?

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moleowner
36341 Points

New Zealand
PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:15 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Quote: › By the way, by the fruit one recognizes the tree; who had the highest kill score in the Bible?


OOhhh you are are naughty Harrie Very Happy I think I know the answer to that question.

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rerun7378
29021 Points

USA US Pennsylvania
PostYou have posted in this forum: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:20 am   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Harrie,

Quote: › And he was unmistakably on the theist team, haha!


You guys would SOOOOOO love to prove that one wouldn't you. Sorry, won't happen.

Read the article provided by this link. Hitler MAY have called himself a Christian at one time, but history proves and he himself has said, that he definitely was NOT a Christian. He used the church as his pawns. And this, is definitely NOT a Christian action.

And I don't care if you say "because he said it, he is it." That is not honest.

http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

And look where the quotes come from on this link. Speeches to the deceived masses and his book to convince the masses of his deception.

http://www.trueorigin.org/hitler01.asp

Quote: › who had the highest kill score in the Bible?


Depends on what you mean by kill. If you mean murder, I would say Pharaoh.

If you mean judgment upon the wickedness of mankind, I have to say God.

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Harrie
43266 Points

Netherlands NL Limburg
PostYou have posted in this forum: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:25 pm   Post subject:  Re: Bringing up your children in light and truth Back to top 

Quote: › You guys would SOOOOOO love to prove that one wouldn't you. Sorry, won't happen.

Read the article provided by this link. Hitler MAY have called himself a Christian at one time, but history proves and he himself has said, that he definitely was NOT a Christian.


I said Hitler was a theist, I didn't say he was a Christian! In fact I said so myself several times but I guessed you missed that?

"Many Christians love to point out that Hitler was an @theist as he indeed disliked Christianity; he thought Paul had twisted Jesus’ words. (...)
And although he was not a real Christian as an adult, he still was a theist, Hitler did belief in God:

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2”

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8"

There are actually many more references by Hitler to the Creator, and no proof he didn't like Christ, just that he indeed did not like Christianity.

So Hitler might not have been a Christian (except for a kid and that does not count,) but he definitely wasn't an @theist, he DID belief in a creator.
You already provided the proof for that yourself in your link 'straight dope'

Quote: › "Depends on what you mean by kill. If you mean murder, I would say Pharaoh.
If you mean judgment upon the wickedness of mankind, I have to say God."


Do you claim that God never killed innocent people?

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