Hi Harrie,

I will try to respond to your great questions.

First, Christ is the Son of God in the flesh.

Second, No I am not for slavery. No women are not less value than men. I think part of your problem stems form a misunderstanding of the true nature of the culture of the societies in which they lived. Would a servant or slave governed by a just righteous man be greatly blessed far more than one who was governed or controlled and abuse by an unrighteous man?

Third, I never said that all were guided by the Holy Ghost in all things.

Yes if all were guided by the Holy Ghost, all would have the same belief.

Quote: › First, Christ is the Son of God in the flesh.

Not all Christians seem to agree, but I will work with your view on this.

How do you know that Jesus is really the son of God? And what does that mean to be the son of God, as I recall that even Satan was the son of God? Or is that wrong too?

Quote: › Second, No I am not for slavery. No women are not less value than men.

Gos has obviously no problem at all with slavery, and according to God, a woman is worth 30 shekel and a man 50. And if a father lets his raped daughter marry her rapist he might even get 50 shekels for her.

Quote: › I think part of your problem stems form a misunderstanding of the true nature of the culture of the societies in which they lived

Is slavery sometimes wrong and sometimes good you mean?

Quote: › Would a servant or slave governed by a just righteous man be greatly blessed far more than one who was governed or controlled and abuse by an unrighteous man?

Yes, the slave would be indeed. But God condones the slave owners to beat their slaves with a rod, as long as they get up within a day or two, and God makes laws were slaves can be inherited.

It must be naive, but I would think that a law created by a good God might set a good example?

Quote: › Yes if all were guided by the Holy Ghost, all would have the same belief.

One would expect that indeed, after all, most Christians would want to live according to the God they belief in, don't you think?
So why does God not guide them? It would not go against the principle of free will, as most Christians WANT to know God's truth?

Harrie,

Quote: › What does strike me is that even Christians don’t agree on what to take literally and what not as well.

You need to delineate between the differing "brands" of Christianity.

Christian Science, Mormonism/LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, most Word of Faith, Christadelphians, Unity School of Christianity, Unification Church, Islam all claim Jesus Christ in some sort of way or another.

This doesn't imply that they are orthodox Christianity. They are not. Regardless of what they say.

Quote: › But other Christians come to different interpretations again, what happened to their Holy Spirit?

What other Christians are you talking about? Answer that so I can get a bearing on where you are going.

Quote: › To the ancient Jews He does, but not to Christians and Jews of today?

The ancient Jews didn't have as much revelation given to them as the first Christian did. There is three heavens. This is where God has His throne. It is not "hovering above the circle of the earth".

Quote: › Do you belief that there is an objective truth? A truth nobody might know completely, but does exist?

Yes and God is that truth.

Quote: › Although it seems a bit nasty of God to warp my mind so I can never see the truth and learn to accept Him, but as my mind is warped I probably see that wrong too.

Sin is man's choice. God gave men over to their lusts. He allowed it. He DID NOT cause it. God did not warp Adam's mind. Adam did that all by himself.

Quote: › But there seem to be many people who also call themselves Christians and interpret the Bible in several other ways.

As Oxy said in another post, you can call yourself whatever you want. It doesn't mean you are that.

Try this site. I find their statement of faith to be really fundamental to the faith.

http://www.carm.org/christian-doctrine

Quote: › If the Holy Spirit will guide you from the moment you start to belief in Christ, that Holy Spirit will help you interpret the Bible, isn’t that right?

If you let Him. If you let Him.

Quote: › So how is it possible that even Christians do not agree on how to interpret the Bible?

Perhaps works of the flesh? There are many possibilities. You really do have to take them on a case by case basis.

Most of the denominations agree on the essentials. Where they disagree is certainly left to interpretation of a particular passage.

Rerun:

Quote: › “What other Christians are you talking about? Answer that so I can get a bearing on where you are going.”

That isn’t important at all.

What I am getting at is that we have these divine inspired writings, and they do not seem to be very clear as there are numerous religious fragments that use those writings one way or another, all interpreting them in their own manner.
It does not really matter who interprets what in what way and why.
ONLY that those divine inspired writings are interpreted quite differently. And the differences can reach to within the core.

For example; todays Roman Catholics do not belief in a literal Genesis or flood, they belief in a by God guided evolution, although I don’t think they believed this a few hundred years ago. Your more conservative variation beliefs literally in Genesis and the flood. That difference should have consequences that reach the core, don’t you think? That’s way beyond the interpretation of a verse. This must have consequences for inherited sin, something that is crucial to your variation of religion?
Now you can argue that Catholics are not really Christians and your variation is the only truth, (like all variations claim, by the way,) but the point is that they use EXACTLY the SAME divine inspired writings, and reach completely different conclusions.
It is about how people can interpret divine inspired writings quite differently.

HOW is that possible? You will agree that there might be lots of Roman Catholics who are sinners and are lost, but there should certainly be quite a few that belief just as purely as you?
Are they not guided by the Holy Spirit as they are not really Christians, even when they think they are?
So if you do open your heart to Jesus, and are still a good person, you might just as well be mislead trying to interpret the Bible?

Quote: › “Yes and God is that truth.”

And you can never, ever be wrong about that, can you?
You use your religion as a reference to judge the truth of all other information, don’t you?
So even if you were wrong, (just for the sake of the argument,) you would never, ever find out, don’t you agree?
Just hypothetically speaking, if you would be able to learn the truth about God, would you want to know that truth?

Quote: › “Sin is man's choice. God gave men over to their lusts. He allowed it. He DID NOT cause it. God did not warp Adam's mind. Adam did that all by himself. “

I’m not talking about Adam’s sin. I’m talking about our inherited sinful nature that obscures the truth, as you once told me.

A bit on a side note; certain apes and monkeys indulge themselves in all kinds of lust, males with females, males with males, females with females, and even adults of both sexes with young ones of both sexes. Did they inherited our sinful nature too?

You said that we all inherited a sinful nature, didn’t you?
You can’t help what you inherit can you? It’s like the color of your skin; you are born with it, don’t you agree?
So how can you ever be guilty of something that is caused by what you inherit?


I asked:” If the Holy Spirit will guide you from the moment you start to belief in Christ, that Holy Spirit will help you interpret the Bible, isn’t that right?”

Quote: › “If you let Him. If you let Him.”

I have tried to explain, that would be the same as you accepting to read Darwin with an open mind, you can’t, can you? You don’t belief Darwin is right to start with. At least you need to be convinced that he MIGHT be right about evolution, before you would start to consider it.

From my point of view, that only works if you accept Christ at a moment in your life when you have not thought things through very well and accept certain things on authority. From then on, you start to wipe aside everything that seems to contradict your religious dogma.
After all: a God can never be wrong, but a human scientist can, isn’t that true?
But have you not locked yourself in that way?
After all, you would only belief a human if it would make sense what he would say, and not conflict with other things you already know.
But if a God tells you something that might not make sense, it must be that you simply do not understand, am I right?

I started with Christ, but accidentally opened the door and started to think everything through with a critical mind, caused by a tiny crack in my faith.
But I agree, what is outside that door is not for everyone, and some better leave it closed.

And of course I was never a real Christian to begin with, as you told me.

Harrie,

Quote: › That isn’t important at all.

Very important. You call Mormons/LDS Christian. They are not.

Quote: › And the differences can reach to within the core.

That doesn't make them all right.

Quote: › the point is that they use EXACTLY the SAME divine inspired writings,

No, actually they don't. They added to the bible with the apocrypha.

Quote: › Are they not guided by the Holy Spirit as they are not really Christians, even when they think they are?

Probably not.

A devout Roman Catholic will pray to Mary and the Saints. This takes away worship from Christ. A damnable sin.

Thou shalt have no other God's before me.

Quote: › So if you do open your heart to Jesus, and are still a good person, you might just as well be mislead trying to interpret the Bible?

If you open your heart to Christ, God will protect you from falsehood.

Quote: › And you can never, ever be wrong about that, can you?

No.

Quote: › You use your religion as a reference to judge the truth of all other information, don’t you?

Yep.

Quote: › So even if you were wrong, (just for the sake of the argument,) you would never, ever find out, don’t you agree?

For the sake of argument, no.

Quote: › Just hypothetically speaking, if you would be able to learn the truth about God, would you want to know that truth?

Would you?

Quote: › I’m talking about our inherited sinful nature that obscures the truth, as you once told me.

Ok, God gave you over to your sin. He allows you to sin. He allows for your beliefs. He wants you to repent, Harrie. He wants you to live, Harrie. He will not force you to trust Him, Harrie. It is up to you. He is even if you don't believe it.

What would you do if God paid you a visit? Would you still reject Him because of His silly laws, or would you trust Him for your salvation, like Christians do?

Quote: › Did they inherited our sinful nature too?

In a manner of speaking. The entire creation was corrupted by the fall.

Quote: › So how can you ever be guilty of something that is caused by what you inherit?

We are not talking about skin color Harrie.

You think sin is some sort of a genetic flaw. This is your humanistic belief showing.

Sin is a spiritual condition, Harrie.

A humanist doesn't believe in the spirit. You will never understand unless you accept that man is more than water and carbon.

Quote: › At least you need to be convinced that he MIGHT be right about evolution, before you would start to consider it.

Darwin had some theories that were marginally correct. I have always conceded that. You wont give God that same grace though.

So, you are the one with the silly little stick-picking laws Harrie.

Quote: › From my point of view,

That's the problem, Harrie.

Quote: › accept certain things on authority.

You ever conduct a genetic experiment, Harrie?

Ever splice genes?

Ever map the human genome, Harrie???????????

Of course you accept things on authority without checking them.

So do I. Wait, no I don't. I have studied the bible profusely. If I run into a seeming contradiction, I research it harder until I find the answer.

Sometimes, I have to let things alone until there is an answer. But I will not accept the first half-cocked theory to come down the pike.

Quote: › After all: a God can never be wrong, but a human scientist can, isn’t that true?

No. Only the true God is right.

Quote: › But if a God tells you something that might not make sense, it must be that you simply do not understand, am I right?

Possibly.

Quote: › I started with Christ,

Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you started with Roman Catholicism and its dogma.

Quote: › And of course I was never a real Christian to begin with, as you told me.

A person sealed by the Holy Spirit cannot reject Christ as you have.

A person that once had the Holy Spirit cannot lose the Holy Spirit.

Quote: › “No, actually they don't. They added to the bible with the apocrypha.”

Or your variation threw part of God’s Words out, why can’t that be possible?

I asked: “And you can never, ever be wrong about that, can you?”

Quote: › “No.”

I asked: “You use your religion as a reference to judge the truth of all other information, don’t you?”

Quote: › “Yep.”

Then I asked: “So even if you were wrong, (just for the sake of the argument,) you would never, ever find out, don’t you agree?”

Quote: › “For the sake of argument, no.”

I asked: “Just hypothetically speaking, if you would be able to learn the truth about God, would you want to know that truth?”

Quote: › “Would you?”

Yes, I would.

But now I would like to hear your answer to that question:

If you would be able to learn the truth about God, would you want to know that truth? Even if that would be that God would not exist?

Quote: › “What would you do if God paid you a visit? Would you still reject Him because of His silly laws, or would you trust Him for your salvation, like Christians do?”

I would definitely have lots and lots of questions to ask Him. Depending on the answers I would trust Him or not.

Quote: › “The entire creation was corrupted by the fall.”

Yes, all the innocent people to come for generations and all the animals.

I asked: “So how can you ever be guilty of something that is caused by what you inherit?”

Quote: › “We are not talking about skin color Harrie. You think sin is some sort of a genetic flaw. This is your humanistic belief showing.”

A SINFUL NATURE is inherited, as you said repeatedly. So that is NOT my fault, like the color of skin isn't my fault. Everything that is inherited is by definition NOT my fault, I can’t do anything about that, I just have to live with it.

Quote: › “Sin is a spiritual condition, Harrie.”

I’m still talking about our inherited sinful nature.

Quote: › “A humanist doesn't believe in the spirit. You will never understand unless you accept that man is more than water and carbon.”

I understand very well that a man is more than water and carbon, I just do not belief that it required a magical being that had to be more complex than the whole universe.

Quote: › “Darwin had some theories that were marginally correct. I have always conceded that. You wont give God that same grace though.”

No, because Darwin is a human and God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing and all good.

Quote: › “You ever conduct a genetic experiment, Harrie? Ever splice genes? Ever map the human genome, Harrie??????????? Of course you accept things on authority without checking them.”

No, I didn’t do any of such things, but I do compare new information with what I do know and combine it, see if it makes sense. Sometimes I reject new information, and sometimes I reject old information and accept new one in place.
But science only provides an alternative to the religious view, even if science would be completely and utterly wrong in all aspects, even that would not make religion the truth. As it is not coherent in itself.

Quote: › “No. Only the true God is right.”

I agree; only a true God would be right. So a false God would be wrong, wouldn’t it?

Quote: › “A person that once had the Holy Spirit cannot lose the Holy Spirit.”

But such a person will not be able to know that only after he lost his faith, don't you think?

Harrie,

Quote: › Or your variation threw part of God’s Words out, why can’t that be possible?

Until 1500, the church and Judaism didn't think the Apocrypha was divinely inspired.

They were included as "other" books. They were not considered divinely inspired though.

AT the Council of Trent, the RCC stated they were divinely inspired because they affirmed many of the heretical dogmas of the RCC.

Quote: › If you would be able to learn the truth about God, would you want to know that truth? Even if that would be that God would not exist?

You would need more than science to prove that to me.

Quote: › A SINFUL NATURE is inherited, as you said repeatedly. So that is NOT my fault, like the color of skin isn't my fault. Everything that is inherited is by definition NOT my fault, I can’t do anything about that, I just have to live with it.

Ok. So now that you acknowledge that you have that sinful nature, what are you going to do about it?

God gave you the opportunity to overcome it through Christ.

Quote: › I’m still talking about our inherited sinful nature.

So am I.

Quote: › I understand very well that a man is more than water and carbon, I just do not belief that it required a magical being that had to be more complex than the whole universe.

Then where did your spirit come from?

Quote: › No, because Darwin is a human and God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing and all good.

And there is the critical flaw in your thinking.

You are a man. You are finite.

Do you think it is possible a finite man could ever understand an infinite God?

Quote: › No, I didn’t do any of such things, but I do compare new information with what I do know and combine it, see if it makes sense.

It may make sense to you, Harrie, but is it correct?

Quote: › So a false God would be wrong, wouldn’t it?

Yes.

Quote: › But such a person will not be able to know that only after he lost his faith, don't you think?

He wouldn't lose his faith, Harrie. It will always be there. Small as a mustard seed perhaps, but still there nonetheless. Indiscernible but there.

Quote: › “Until 1500, the church and Judaism didn't think the Apocrypha was divinely inspired.”

But the only Christianity around for a very long time was Catholicism, and they were wrong according to you, so what does that mean?

I asked: “If you would be able to learn the truth about God, would you want to know that truth? Even if that would be that God would not exist?”

Quote: › “You would need more than science to prove that to me.’

I realize that well. So there is no way to ever prove that to you, from my point of view.

Quote: › “Ok. So now that you acknowledge that you have that sinful nature, what are you going to do about it?”

I do not acknowledge that, I am still trying to understand your way of thinking.

So again: don’t you agree that we can’t help being born with a sinful nature?

Quote: › “God gave you the opportunity to overcome it through Christ.”

Perhaps, but we start with a problem, don’t you agree?
And what about the people that lived before Christ?

Quote: › “Then where did your spirit come from?”

We will not agree on this: ‘spirit’ to me is just the working of the brain, similar to the driving of a car. ‘Driving’ is not to be found under the hood, it is a function of the car.

Quote: › “Do you think it is possible a finite man could ever understand an infinite God?”

I think it is quite easy to understand why the existence of a God is unlikely and why people think/hope a God would exist.

Quote: › “It may make sense to you, Harrie, but is it correct?”

Life is a continues process of learning, so any information is rarely 100% correct. If I find information that fits better and makes more sense I simply replace it. I have no God that would frown upon that or sent me to hell to burn forever. Dawkins or Darwin can't send me to an atheist hell as there isn't such thing.

I said: “So a false God would be wrong, wouldn’t it?”

Quote: › “Yes.”

And how will you ever be able to find the true God if you think you have already found the true God? Wouldn’t that be impossible?

Quote: › “He wouldn't lose his faith, Harrie. It will always be there. Small as a mustard seed perhaps, but still there nonetheless. Indiscernible but there.”

What would it mean to you if that would not be true?

Harrie,

Quote: › so what does that mean?

It means that even the church became corrupted once Christianity was made legal by Constantine.

Quote: › So there is no way to ever prove that to you, from my point of view.

Probably not.

Quote: › And what about the people that lived before Christ?

I answered that on another thread today.

Quote: › We will not agree on this: ‘spirit’ to me is just the working of the brain, similar to the driving of a car. ‘Driving’ is not to be found under the hood, it is a function of the car.

Driving is a learned action.

The spirit of man is not a learned experience.

Quote: › I think it is quite easy to understand why the existence of a God is unlikely and why people think/hope a God would exist.

That was not my question. But you evaded it quite well.

Quote: › And how will you ever be able to find the true God if you think you have already found the true God? Wouldn’t that be impossible?

The true God would have to find you. And THAT is what I have been saying all along.

Quote: › What would it mean to you if that would not be true?

But it is true. According to the bible, but you don't care, a saved person cannot be lost again in the future.

I said: “We will not agree on this: ‘spirit’ to me is just the working of the brain, similar to the driving of a car. ‘Driving’ is not to be found under the hood, it is a function of the car.’

Quote: › “Driving is a learned action.The spirit of man is not a learned experience”

I think you know what I mean. Let’s take another example, the function of a clock is time keeping. You can take the clock apart and will not be able to find a ‘time keeping’ part, as that is the relationship between all the parts.

According to you, something like a soul or spirit can exist without a body, but that raises numerous questions again we would need yet another thread. If you want, we could do that.

Quote: › “That was not my question. But you evaded it quite well.”

If you are not satisfied with my answer I will answer it again:

Quote: › “Do you think it is possible a finite man could ever understand an infinite God?”

No, not all of it, but the core of that God should make sense to begin with. Compare it with science; many theories you can understand and check yourself, but a topic like quantum mechanics might be hard to understand. But if those more simpler theories would not work out in reality, I would not trust that there would be any truth in that I can't yet understand.
Does that answer your question?

Quote: › “The true God would have to find you. And THAT is what I have been saying all along.”

So it depends on God and not on you? That is not what I understood at first.

Quote: › “But it is true. According to the bible, but you don't care, a saved person cannot be lost again in the future.”

You use the Bible to prove the truth of the Bible. But a second hand car dealer will also tell you to trust him, yet I take it you will not trust him just like that?
What do you do to find out if humans tell you the truth or not? And I’m not talking about religion now, let’s just stick to buying a second hand car.

Harrie,

Quote: › If you want, we could do that.

Go ahead.

Quote: › No, not all of it, but the core of that God should make sense to begin with.

What do you define as the "core"?

Quote: › So it depends on God and not on you?

If you consistently reject what was said about Him, then He will have to initiate.

Quote: › What do you do to find out if humans tell you the truth or not? And I’m not talking about religion now, let’s just stick to buying a second hand car.

Try out the car. See if it works.

I will start another thread about the soul, or spirit, or whatever people call that part that does not die.

I said: "No, not all of it, but the core of that God should make sense to begin with."

Quote: › "What do you define as the "core"?"

I would think the Bible would be a nice starting point, as that is were this whole religion hinges on. The Bible should not contain questionable verses of the kind we have often discussed before.

I asked: "So it depends on God and not on you?"

Quote: › "If you consistently reject what was said about Him, then He will have to initiate."

In that case I suppose everybody should be saved in the end? After all, if God initiates the Holy Spirit to come and help you to interpret the Bible and reality, everybody in his right mind should start to belief in Christ?

Quote: › "Try out the car. See if it works."

I completely agree. So you do not belief the dealer's word? Why not?

Harrie,

Quote: › I would think the Bible would be a nice starting point,

Go through the Statement of Faith on this site. One by one.

Quote: › The Bible should not contain questionable verses of the kind we have often discussed before.

Then tell God what He should write in His book.

After all, it doesn't say: "in the beginning, Harrie created the heavens and earth."

If this is how God desires to communicate with us, shouldn't we take Him at His word?

Quote: › In that case I suppose everybody should be saved in the end?

I didn't say He WOULD initiate. I said He would have to be the one to initiate.

Quote: › I completely agree. So you do not belief the dealer's word? Why not?

Because the dealer is not God.

Rerun

Me: “I would think the Bible would be a nice starting point,”

Quote: › “Go through the Statement of Faith on this site. One by one.”

Why? We only know from the Bible that God even exists, so that seems to me a good starting point?

Quote: › “Then tell God what He should write in His book. After all, it doesn't say: "in the beginning, Harrie created the heavens and earth." If this is how God desires to communicate with us, shouldn't we take Him at His word? “

The question is if the Bible is inspired by God! And before you should start to belief every word of the Bible as if it is indeed the word of God, should you not first try to establish if this can be true?
Everything you know about God, you know from the Bible.
So if you already belief that the Bible is divine inspired, you will indeed find the proof of that inside, as the Bible tells you it is truly divine inspired.

Perhaps a good test would be to replace ‘God’ by Allah or Brahma and see if it evokes the same feeling when you read certain verses?
Suppose you would read this in the Koran:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.”

How would you interpret it?

Quote: › “I didn't say He WOULD initiate. I said He would have to be the one to initiate.”

Then God would effectively decide if you end up in hell or not, is that right?

Quote: › “Because the dealer is not God.”

The dealer is trying to convince you to buy the car, he tells you that car is great, was previously owned by an old lady who only drove it to church on Sundays, while in reality it might be owned by a 16 year old brat who wrecked it a couple of times, messed with the engine, the brakes, installed a big stereo but removed it again leaving the wires dangle, etc.
Perhaps you will meet the rare honest car dealer that tells you the truth, but I would not bet my life on it.
It is wise to try and find out if that dealer is on the level or not, and judge that car on its own merit, you will agree.

But when it comes to the Bible, people lead their life by it and do not even read one single verse critically: is it really the word of God?
Can it be the Word of a good, all knowing, all powerful God?
Are there no contradictions?
Are all the verses clear, like you could expect from a God?
Can there be mistakes in translation if God guides the translators?
Does the book conflict with reality, if so, why?

Harrie,

Quote: › should you not first try to establish if this can be true?

It has been done time and again.

Quote: › Suppose you would read this in the Koran: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.” How would you interpret it?

Considering the lifestyle of Muhammad, he would mean that exactly how it is read.

But, you cannot do that with Christ.

He means what is commonly interpreted. You should love God more than anyone or anything.

Quote: › Then God would effectively decide if you end up in hell or not, is that right?

If you reject Christ you end up in hell.

If you accept Christ you end up in heaven.

God set these rules. So yes.

Quote: › But when it comes to the Bible, people lead their life by it and do not even read one single verse critically: is it really the word of God?

Is that God's fault?

Quote: › Does the book conflict with reality, if so, why?

I told you that.