It seems to me that Christianity can not lay any real claim to accurately representing the Way, the Truth and the Life of the Son of God.

For example, He said that you could tell who was truly following Him, because they would be those who would be "laying down their lives for their friends" just as He did. (John 13:34,35 & 15:9-16)

Who do you see in Christianity actually doing that? Actually living each day for the others, 24/7, just as Jesus did for His disciples until it killed Him?

On that basis alone, Christians are not followers of Christ...but that is just one of a hundred clear disqualifications I could cite, that would disprove the claim that Christians are true disciples of the Son.

Do any of you ever wrestle with this? What would you say to such a question?

Sincerely,
David

I take it that if you did find such a person you would then ask him to tell the nearest mountain to uproot itself and plant itself in the sea, so that you might know too whether his faith was the kind of faith Jesus said is the least of which we should have.


Arythmael

This wouldn't be the first time I heard this kind of questioning. My response to you David is that, if you gave up christianity because of this then you should think again to see if you have been looking at it the right way.

You've heard the usual one I suppose?: "christians are not perfect, they are forgiven".

And you should instead look to see first if you are a follower of Jesus before you look at somebody else. Have you met your own set of criterias and standards? are you doing love (agape)? Luke 6:42.

But whats christianity without Christ? follow Christ Jesus our Lord.

I encourage you to reconsider.

It doesn't seem to me that either of the above responses are really answers to the question.

You claim to be followers of Jesus, disciples of the Son of God. He Himself plainly said in no uncertain terms that those who follow Him would have to live a certain kind of life to do so; they would have to pay a particular cost to do so; and if they were truly doing so, they would be bringing forth a certain kind of fruit.

True disciples would be those who love one another with nothing held back for self, just as He did; and who are One with each other, in just the same way that Jesus and the Father are One. (John 13:34,35 & 17:21-23)

Do you honestly think that Christianity is bearing such fruit? With its 37,000 denominations? With the plain fact that Christians lives in general are just as entangled in the world, and just as selfish, and just as immoral, as those who don't claim to be followers of the Son of God? (This is not just an opinion, but is fact that is objectively substantiated over and over again by every survey George Barna takes...see www.Barna.org)

Christians are just as immoral, just as worldy, just as selfish, just as materialistic....they are living in the perfect fulfillment of 2 Timothy 3:1-5. And at the same time, they are far more divided than any other group on earth.

Yet you claim as your Boss, your Lord, your Master, the One who said those who are truly following Him would be those who love each other just as He does, who are set "free indeed" by Him, and who would be One with each other just as He and the Father are One.

We are not talking about a "little gap" in credibility here...we are not talking about a small discrepancy between what Jesus said His followers would be, and what Christianity actually is...we are talking about a Grand Canyon between the two. The truth is, Christianity and Christians in general are diametrically opposed, in the fruit that they manifest, to what the Son said true followers of His would bring forth.

This cannot be explained away by a bumper sticker..."Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven".

I think any honest person of sincere heart who deeply desires to follow Jesus, would have to be troubled by this state of affairs. As Jesus said, trees are to be judged by their fruit...not by wishful thinking.

Sincerely, and with respect,
David

I think Christians ARE troubled by the current state of all that goes under the title "Christian"...I know I am, but this is precisely what drives me to seek a deeper understanding and more consistant way of living for myself. To allow my dissappointment with the actions of others to draw me away from God, to in effect blame Him for our own inconsistencies, makes no sense to me at all. The fact that people are imperfect in an extreme measure only demonstrates the depth of our need for Him...it doesn't disprove or invalidate what Jesus taught and did.

I'll Pray For You....

davidderush wrote (View Post): › It seems to me that Christianity can not lay any real claim to accurately representing the Way, the Truth and the Life of the Son of God. For example, He said that you could tell who was truly following Him, because they would be those who would be "laying down their lives for their friends" just as He did. (John 13:34,35 & 15:9-16) Who do you see in Christianity actually doing that? Actually living each day for the others, 24/7, just as Jesus did for His disciples until it killed Him? On that basis alone, Christians are not followers of Christ...but that is just one of a hundred clear disqualifications I could cite, that would disprove the claim that Christians are true disciples of the Son. Do any of you ever wrestle with this? What would you say to such a question? Sincerely, David

This sounds to me to be one of two things:

either you are an atheist trying to challenge Christianity because it makes you feel better thinking that others think the way you do, and you are attempting to validate your own rationalization by causing doubt in others

or you really where a Christian and had a hard time trying to sacrifice the worldly things in your life that you desire, so you found a lame excuse for yourself try and rationalize that you felt was unobtainable. You are now here for the same reason I stated above, that you feel better by causing doubt in other christians because you think it validates your reasoning.

If you believe in Christ, why don't you obtain the level of sacrifice you think he demanded, regardless of what others are doing.

If your just an atheist, why don't you find some atheist friends to shoot the breeze with instead of dragging down others to your view of a meaningless existence.

Ponder this, if God aint real, then this life is ALL YOU HAVE. Better live it up. I hope your rich and hansome, because if not, you'll spend the rest of your life toiling for money and women.

I see your point David, but you are going the wrong direction with it in my opinion. None of us are perfect, and the bible says this. How many times did the disciples write that they KNEW what they needed to do, that they KNEW what they shouldn't, but did the oposite? Not even they would claim to have lived to the standard you seem to think they did, and they knew they couldn't. The only thing they could do is try.

Also, not every Christian is called in the same way. Some are called to go into missions, others to open churches to minister to those who need it, others have talents they can bring to a congregation, and others are simply called to be an example. Now on that last part, you say "well they are not being a good example", I disagree. To look at a Christian make mistakes, and repent for them means alot. Sure some don't live up to even this standard, but they should be helping you see how even they can fail at what they are striving for, the point is not that they fail/fall in their walk, its that they try.

I'm also not sure your experiences, and cannot speak for them, but I have lived all around this country, and visited or attended many different denominations. If there are two things that I have seen, they are 1) that the majority of Christians WILL give themselves for others (even if they don't go around offering themselves to others), and 2) that even though they may not agree with this denomination, or that one, they agree on 1 thing, and that is that Jesus is Lord and Savior. THAT IS being united. I'm sure, by the sounds of it, you want everyone to follow a single set of opinions, but that is not how God made us. I personaly don't like large crowds and find them distracting to my spiritual growth, so I wouldn't attend a "one world church" even if there were one and I agreed with it. You need to respect that people are different, and that this includes Christians, but doesn't mean that they are not ONE.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.

R.E.Manic wrote (View Post): › I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.

So what...you're saying that God is insane?

Well...


...


...


...


...I agree. God is indeed insane. It would take somebody truly insane to create us in a perfect world, allow us to screw it up, and then go through a painful death to give us the chance to be saved from the world that we messed up in the first place.

Josh

David,although it may seem that you are throwing successful accusations against the Bible,you are really not. How do you know that these Christians who don't show love are really Christians at all? This is a depressingly prevalent mistake among so many. It was very liberating for me to realize one day that if one who calls him(her)self a Christian does not show great love for God and people,then they are either temporarily "carnal" or unsaved. They no longer even put a miniscule dent in my faith.

I need to ask you before saying anything further,what reasons were you a Christian before? What evidence made you believe that the Bible was true?

Assuming that you come back to the site again,I'll get back to you to reply...though I need to say that it may take a few days since I don't go to this site much.

[quote]There are Christians that risk their lives and go into other countries to minister and to feed the hungry. There are also places that have food banks and shelters in the middle of big cities... and they are run by Christians. [/quote]

You also forget that there are many non-christians that run these sorts of programs as well. Assuming that such humanitarianism is strictly christian is a grave mistake.

[quote]David,although it may seem that you are throwing successful accusations against the Bible,you are really not. How do you know that these Christians who don't show love are really Christians at all? This is a depressingly prevalent mistake among so many. It was very liberating for me to realize one day that if one who calls him(her)self a Christian does not show great love for God and people,then they are either temporarily "carnal" or unsaved. They no longer even put a miniscule dent in my faith. [/quote]

This is a pathetic example of the easy-way out for many christians. They have no clear definition of christian for following and can thus brush aside and criticism by saying that particular circumstances may not be christian. Tell me then, what is a christian? When time comes to defend your own larger belief system and the corruption it breeds then all christians become gnostics: forever impenetrable in their enclosed sphere of personal relation with christ. Christ becomes an archetype.

The most typical defense for christian belief is the relationship with Jesus. However there is no way to seperate this relationship than from the archaic archetypal relationship between man and divine guide(s). Your relationships with Jesus gives no credibility to christian belief system that a human named Jesus Christ came on earth as the only begotten son of God to save the souls of humanity.

Many people can show great love and care for others; christianity is not a prerequisite for love. So to the moderate christians who don't take the bible comepletely literally...what is the point? Do you take the christ story as teachings or as the factual fate of our species? If you only gain from the teachings then you have no reasons for supporting literal christianity. Again, you are more like gnostics in that your spiritual journey is personal but you take lessons from allegorical literature.

I think our friend David here brings many important questions to light. Such as the types of negative effects christianity can spawn when used inappropriately. I find many christians use christ as their scapegoat and assume their belief in him (if there ever was a him) is the ultimate redemption from anything they may do.

The most pleasant christians (from my experience) are the ones who take the time to consider the bible's teachings and honestly try to implement them in their lives. They interpret the gospels for the teachings they hold; they do not learn history from the bible and take it to be the absolute undisputed word of god. I just can't understand why the moderate christains insist on fighting for the authenticity of Christianity when they're beliefs do not reflect it. I urge the fence-sitters on this forum to expand their worldview and embrace the supreme mysteriousness of existence and realize that God is not some separate being pulling strings up in the cosmos - God is the sheer overpowering miracle of existence itself and the wonders that result from it.

"I am not a Christian anymore...and I am glad."

I am sad.

But then I wonder if you ever really accepted Christ into your heart to begin with. To say that prayer and mean changes your life.
He comes in and takes over ( if you let Him ) and all of a sudden you're looking at life from a totally new perspective.

I can't imagine anyone who comes to a relationship with Christ ever turning their back on Him. He offers so much.

Do you ever wonder how beautiful this world is? Can you imagine the incredible complexity of life? Do you think this reality is just an accident?

Think again David.