Emerald wrote: › [color=green][b]It is worth noting that for the majority of times the word translated "hell" is used in Scripture, it literally means "the grave." In only 12 of the 54 times we read the word "hell" does the original word mean "a place of burning."
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<<<It is worth noting that for the majority of times the word translated "hell" is used in Scripture, it literally means "the grave." In only 12 of the 54 times we read the word "hell" does the original word mean "a place of burning.">>>
Okay, now give me the proof that what you say is true. You have given statistics, which may or not be true. I don?t happen to believe they are. Actually, your reply would please the so-called Jehovah?s Witnesses who say the very same things but are terribly mixed up about the Bible,
>>>In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
<<<For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 2 .>>>
Pardon me, but that argument seems very ridiculous to me. You are quoting from the KJV in the first place, which at times is a very poor translation which doesn?t correctly indicate the tenses of the original. But you are taking something which is irrelevant to what we are discussing and trying to argue from it. 1 Sam. 1:22 has nothing in the world to do with eternity; neither has Jonah 2:6. These are merely translations from the KJV, as well as relating to another topic.
<<<Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4),>>>>
An old chestnut constantly quoted by the so-called Jehovah?s Witnesses. The verse actually refers to discipline for sin in the national entity of Israel in the days of Ezekiel, not to eternal judgment.
<<<and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3).>>>
This is a reference to the baptism of fire at the second advent of Jesus Christ:
?shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up? ? this is the baptism of fire again; ?saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.? Remember Matthew chapter 3 verse 11 ? the axe is applied to the root. Neither root nor branch means utter destruction, removal from the earth. That is the unbeliever. What happens to the believer at this time?
1. There are three Biblical passages dealing with the baptism of fire ? Matthew 3:11,12; Luke 3:16,17; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.
2. There is an analogy in Matthew 24:36ff which does not refer to the Church. Noah began the post-diluvian civilisation; when Christ returns we have a new civilisation. So when there is a new civilisation the unbelievers are cast out and believers go into the new civilisation. Generally, just before the civilisation begins there is a total indifference to spiritual things. That is the concept in these verses. The principle is that people were so indifferent to spiritual things that there is tremendous occupation with the details of life.
3. There are some parables that describe the baptism of fire: the wheat and the tares is an example ? Matthew 13:24-43.
4. The Gentile baptism of fire is described in Matthew 25:31-46.
<<<Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth.">>>
Nonsense! Satan is the devil. Matthew 25:46 tells us that the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. Satan is a spirit being. How can a spirit be reduced to ashes?
<<<Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"),>>>
Yes, but again you misinterpret. ?a little while? refers to the completion of human history; ?the wicked shall not be? [literally, shall not]. That is, they shall not have any prosperity, any happiness, any success, because the lake of fire will be their lot. The ?wicked? is simply a technical word for the unbeliever, the one who has not received Jesus Christ as saviour.
<<<Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.>>>
You are very careless with the Scriptures and are obviously fitting them to a point of view. Where in the world do you get such an interpretation?
<<<Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4).>>>
Nothing to do with the topic. You are meandering all over the place. In the first place, you seem to be having comprehension problems. Where exactly in Genesis 3:4 does it say that ?sinners? would die? It doesn?t. You are dreaming. Adam and Eve were not sinners at this point. Satan was talking to them BEFORE the fall.
<<<A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar.>>>
How so? You don?t say how you arrive at that conclusion, but the notion is entirely false. The literal Hebrew says, ?Dying thou shalt die.? It means that if Adam and Eve sinned they would die spiritually [dying], and then at a later date die [physically] as a result of their sin. Paul tells us in Romans that ?in Adam all die.? Adam, by his sin, plunged the entire human race into spiritual death. We are all born spiritually dead which is why we need regeneration?John 3.
>>>Now, with that said.... I'll address Corvis' question. Yes, I have read Mark many times as I have the rest of that wonderful Word. >>>
So? How do you explain that away?
<<<In these verses the word "hell" is translated from the Greek word "Gehenna," which is another name for the Valley of Hinnom just outside the walls of Jerusalem. There the refuse and bodies of animals were cast into an ever smoldering fire to be consumed. What might escape the flames was constantly being destroyed by maggots which fed on the dead bodies. Gehenna symbolized a place of total destruction. >>>
More ?Jehovah?s Witness? false doctrine! Yes, it did, and it was a picture, a type of the eternal fire. This is why Jesus used the illustration.
The lake of fire is the final destination for both fallen angels and unbelieving mankind. It is both literal and eternal. It was prepared originally for Satan and his angels. Matt 25:41. Unbelievers also go there, and there is no way out, Jn 3:18, 36; Heb 9:27. The first occupants of the lake of fire will be the beast and false prophet of the Tribulation, Rev 19:20. The devil will also be in the lake of fire, Rev 20:10. And after the Great White Throne judgment, the unbelievers of the human race will be there, Rev 20:14. Unbelievers are pulled out of the fire of Hades, judged, and cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15, 21:8.
Hades or Sheol:
The Hebrew word SHEOL originally meant in post-Biblical Hebrew the deep parts of the sea. But both Sheol and the Greek word Hades are used to refer to anything that is subterranean and large. Therefore, they are used for the vast subterranean place of the departed dead of the human race and the abode of certain
fallen angels.
Both Sheol and Hades are mistranslated ?hell? which adds to the confusion.
HADES is used from classical times and before for the underworld and the realm of the dead.
Sheol is sometimes used for the grave, as in Gen 37:35, 42:38; 1 Sam 2:6 and other passages.
The dying are said to go to Sheol, which is not the grave, but to the underpart of the earth. This is a reference to the soul, Num 16:30; Ezek 31:15, 17.
Prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, all human dead went to Sheol or Hades where two compartments were designed to receive them. Old Testament believers went to Paradise or Abraham?s Bosom. Unbelievers went to Torments.
Those who are believers in the Old Testament are said to be delivered into the power of Sheol, Hos 13:14; Ps 49:16.
However, since the resurrection of Christ, Old Testament believers have all been transferred to the third heaven as a part of the triumphal procession.
The Resurrection of the Soul of Jesus Christ from Hades.
In the resurrection of Jesus Christ, two categories of divine power were used.
a. The omnipotence of God the Father sent His human spirit in heaven back to His body in the grave. Thus the Father became an agent in the resurrection, Acts 2:24; Rom 6:4; Eph 1:20; Col 2:12; 1 Thes 1:10; 1 Pet 1:21.
b. The omnipotence of God the Holy Spirit sent His soul from Hades back to His body in the grave. Thus the Holy Spirit became an agent in the resurrection, Rom 1:4, 8:11; 1 Pet 3:16.
The principle is that the power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead is now available to every Church Age believer as a member of the royal family of God. Eph 1:19-20, ?And what is the surpassing greatness of His power to us who have believed for the working of His superior power, which [superior power] He [God the Father] put into operation [made operational] by means of Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His own right hand in heavenly places.?
The same omnipotence of God will raise the Church Age believer at the Rapture of the Church. 1 Cor 6:14, ?Now God has not only raised the Lord, but He will also raise us through His power.?
a. If our soul and spirit are already in heaven, God the Father will provide our resurrection body.
b. If we are alive as a part of the Rapture generation on earth, God the Holy Spirit will provide our resurrection body.
The Resurrection of the Soul of Jesus Christ from Hades.
In the resurrection of Jesus Christ, two categories of divine power were used.
a. The omnipotence of God the Father sent His human spirit in heaven back to His body in the grave. Thus the Father became an agent in the resurrection, Acts 2:24; Rom 6:4; Eph 1:20; Col 2:12; 1 Thes 1:10; 1 Pet 1:21.
b. The omnipotence of God the Holy Spirit sent His soul from Hades back to His body in the grave. Thus the Holy Spirit became an agent in the resurrection, Rom 1:4, 8:11; 1 Pet 3:16.
The principle is that the power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead is now available to every Church Age believer as a member of the royal family of God. Eph 1:19-20, ?And what is the surpassing greatness of His power to us who have believed for the working of His superior power, which [superior power] He [God the Father] put into operation [made operational] by means of Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His own right hand in heavenly places.?
The same omnipotence of God will raise the Church Age believer at the Rapture of the Church. 1 Cor 6:14, ?Now God has not only raised the Lord, but He will also raise us through His power.?
a. If our soul and spirit are already in heaven, God the Father will provide our resurrection body.
b. If we are alive as a part of the Rapture generation on earth, God the Holy Spirit will provide our resurrection body.
Scriptural Documentation for Sheol or Hades.
1. Eph 4:9, ?(Now this doctrine that ascended, what does it imply, except that He also went down into the lower regions [Sheol or Hades] of the earth??
2. Job 11:7, ?Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? It is as high as the heavens; what can you do? Deeper than Sheol; what can you know?? In other words, Sheol is used here for the location of all Old Testament believers.
3. Isa 14:9, ?Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come.?
4. 1 Sam 2:6, ?The Lord kills; the Lord makes alive. He brings down to Sheol and He raises up.?
The Four Compartments of Sheol or Hades.
1. Paradise is where the Old Testament believers resided after death before the resurrection of our Lord.
2. Torments is where all unbelievers reside, Lk 16:23.
3. Tartarus is where certain fallen angels, called BENI HA ELOHIM in Gen 6, reside.
4. The Abyss contains demons who transgress the boundaries of the human race.
a. The Abyss is the location of the demon king, Satan?s right hand man, called Abaddon. He will have quite a future in the Tribulation. Abaddon is mentioned once in the New Testament and nine times in the Old Testament. In Rev 9, he breaks out of this jail with the help of Satan who has now been cast out of heaven and can never return there again.
b. Demons who indwelt a man asked our Lord not to send them to the Abyss.
Paradise or Abraham?s Bosom.
1. Paradise or Abraham?s Bosom is a part of Sheol or Hades where all the Old Testament believers went immediately after death. Once departed from the body, their soul and spirit went to Paradise.
2. David wrote a thanksgiving psalm regarding his deliverance from death. In Ps 116, he states that had he died, his soul would have gone to Sheol.
a. Ps 116:1, ?I love the Lord because He hears my voice and my supplications.? God in His grace spared David, who should have died.
b. Ps 116:2, ?Because He has turned His ear to me, I will call on Him as long as I live.? This states briefly that his prayer has been answered. He is grateful that he is still alive.
c. Ps 116:3, ?The cords of death entangled me, and the terrors of Sheol came upon me. I found distress and sorrow.? He was dying miserably.
d. Ps 116:4, ?Then I called on the name of the Lord, `O Lord, I beseech You, deliver my soul.??
e. Ps 116:5, ?The Lord is gracious and righteous; our God is full of compassion.?
3. In David?s prophecy of Ps 16:10, he said, ?You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, neither will You permit Your Holy One to undergo decay.?
a. Notice that David makes a distinction between the grave where the body is located and Paradise or Abraham?s Bosom where the soul is located.
b. David is not speaking about himself, for his body has undergone decay. His soul went to Paradise after he died. David was prophesying about the soul of the humanity of Jesus Christ in Hades after His physical death.
c. No Old Testament believer could go to the third heaven until Jesus Christ had been judged for his sins on the cross. At that point, the Old Testament believers were all transferred in a triumphal procession into the presence of God in heaven.
d. Today, after the cross, when any believer dies, his soul and spirit is absent from the body and face to face with the Lord in heaven.
4. We know Ps 16:10 does not refer to David but is a prophecy referring to Jesus Christ because it is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:27. ?Because you will not abandon My soul to Hades, nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.? This verse is then interpreted in Acts 2:31. ?He [David] looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades nor did His flesh have time to suffer decay.? Our Lord only spent three days in Hades.5. Paul also interprets Ps 16:10 in the same way in Acts 13:35. ?Therefore, He also says in another place [Ps 16:10], `You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.?? Paul explained what that meant in Acts 13:36-37. ?For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, died, and he was buried among his ancestors and he did undergo decay. But He whom God raised did not undergo decay.? This is a reference to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, with emphasis on the fact that His human soul returned to His body in the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit before His body could decay.
6. 1 Pet 3:18, ?For Christ also died once and for all, the righteous as a substitute for the unrighteous, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh but made alive by means of the Spirit.?
7. Where in Hades did the soul of our Lord go? The answer is found in Lk 23:39-43. ?And one of the criminals who was hanging there hurled insults at our Lord, saying, `Are you not the Messiah? Deliver yourself and us!? But the other criminal answered and rebuked him, saying, `Do you not respect God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we have received what we deserve for our deeds; but He has done nothing wrong.? Then he kept repeating to Jesus, ?Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.? And He
replied to him, `Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.??
a. Even all the criminals knew the message that our Lord Jesus Christ was the Messiah and the Savior.
b. Again, Paradise is the first compartment of Hades.
8. Eph 4:9, ?(Now this doctrine that He ascended, what does it imply, except that He also descended into the lower regions of
the earth?)?
a. This refers to our Lord?s human soul which went to Paradise after His physical death.
b. The soul of our Lord in physical death joined the souls of all the Old Testament believers already there, i.e., all believers who had died during the Old Testament plus all who had died during the dispensation of the Hypostatic Union, which would include Lazarus and John the Baptist.
c. In resurrection, the soul of Jesus Christ was returned to His body in the grave by the omnipotence of God the Holy Spirit.
9. The resurrection of Jesus Christ resulted in transferring all the believers in Paradise into the third heaven. Eph 4:8, ?Therefore, it [Ps 68:18] says, `When He ascended into heaven, He led a host of captives [Old Testament believers] in a triumphal procession from a state of captivity, and He gave gifts to men.?
a. No believer resided in heaven until Jesus Christ was judged for our sins and was resurrected. That is analogous or tantamount to the triumphal procession.
b. The explanation of this is given in Matt 27:51-53. ?And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook, and the rocks were split, and the tombs were open, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were resuscitated. And coming out of the tombs, they entered intothe holy city and appeared to many.?
c. This passage tells us the time when all believers who had died were transferred from Paradise in Hades to the third heaven or ?New Paradise.? To show this transfer was occurring, some were permitted to come out of their tombs, take their former bodies in resuscitation, and announced it in the city.
10. Paul visited the third heaven after he was stoned to death, and he saw these believers there, 2 Cor 11:25ff.
a. On the occasion when Paul was stoned to death, he was permitted to visit the third heaven or new Paradise before he was resuscitated and returned to the earth.
b. Paul describes his experience in heaven in 2 Cor 12:2-4. ?I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago ? whether in the body, I do not know, or out of the body, I do not know; God knows ? such a person was caught up into the third heaven. I knew such a man ? whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows ? how he was caught up into Paradise, and he heard inexpressible doctrines which a person is not permitted to speak.?
(1) Fourteen years previous would have been around 57 A.D. when Paul was in Lystra.
(2) Paul?s experience here was to show that in the Church Age, we do not go to Paradise in Sheol after our death, but all believers since the resurrection of Jesus Christ go directly to heaven at the point of physical death, with the exception of the Rapture generation.
Torments.
1. Torments is the residence of all unbelievers since the beginning of time.
2. Ps 9:17, ?The unbelievers will turn to Sheol just as nations who forgot God.?
3. Why is anyone in Torments, destined to be judged at the Last Judgment? Jn 3:18, ?He who believes in Me is not judged; but He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the uniquely-born Son of God.? The only reason a person goes to Torments, later to be condemned to the Lake of Fire, is because he has rejected Jesus Christ as Savior.
4. The first resurrection is for believers only and is formed of four companies.
a. Alpha company is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
b. Bravo company is the resurrection of the Church at the Rapture. Since rank has its privileges, the royal family is next in resurrection.
c. Charlie company is the resurrection of all OldTestament saints and Tribulational martyrs at the end of the Tribulation.
d. Delta company is the resurrection of all millennial saints at the end of the Millennium.
5. The second resurrection is for unbelievers only and occurs after the Gog and Magog Revolution at the end of the
Millennium. At that point, ?Hades will deliver up its dead.? Those dead are located in Torments. They will stand before our Lord seated on the Great White Throne.
a. The unbelievers will not be judged on the basis of their sins, because their sins were already judged on the cross, and the law of double jeopardy applies.
b. Rev 20:11-15 makes very clear the basis for their indictment. Two sets of books are opened.
(1) The Book of Life contains the names of believers only. Anyone who dies without believing in Jesus Christ has his name blotted out of this book.
(2) The Book of Works lists all an unbeliever?s good works. Yet in their totality, they all add up to ?R (relative righteousness). -R cannot have fellowship with +R (perfect divine righteousness), so they are condemned to the Lake of Fire forever.
c. The Lake of Fire was designed for the fallen angels. Man was created to resolve the angelic conflict. Those people who go the way of fallen angels, rejecting Jesus Christ, will share the Lake of Fire with fallen angels forever.
6. Lk 16:19-31 is not a parable, but is a true story. Parables never mention proper names. Furthermore, parables are always identified or explained as parables. The narrative in Lk 16:19-31 is a true story, entitled ?Dead Men Tell Tales.?