Hi goingwithchrist, thanks for your kind thoughts; I of course wish you well, too.

goingwithchrist wrote (View Post): › To say that something like Tsunami takes away from the possible existence of God's mercy, thus God Himself, is to blindly look upon that which you will never know.

This response begs the question. I give a reason to think that there is no all-good, all-powerful being; your response is that I "blindly look upon what which you will never know."

You believe there is such a being, and I believe there isn't. The question is, which of us is right--which of us has knowledge? I gave a reason to support my position. Your response is "well, I'm the one with knowledge, so nyah." This is basically a way simply to repeat your position--"I'm right and you're wrong." Obviously, I think I'm right and you're wrong. So we have to try to settle our disagreement with reasons. Why do you think your position is right? Do you have reasons for your view? I've given reasons for mine. If you don't have reasons for your view, perhaps you can explain on this thread why you think it's permissible to believe something without reason.


spetey

spetey wrote (View Post): › Hi goingwithchrist, thanks for your kind thoughts; I of course wish you well, too. goingwithchrist wrote (View Post): › To say that something like Tsunami takes away from the possible existence of God's mercy, thus God Himself, is to blindly look upon that which you will never know. This response begs the question. I give a reason to think that there is no all-good, all-powerful being; your response is that I "blindly look upon what which you will never know." You believe there is such a being, and I believe there isn't. The question is, which of us is right--which of us has knowledge? I gave a reason to support my position. Your response is "well, I'm the one with knowledge, so nyah." This is basically a way simply to repeat your position--"I'm right and you're wrong." Obviously, I think I'm right and you're wrong. So we have to try to settle our disagreement with reasons. Why do you think your position is right? Do you have reasons for your view? I've given reasons for mine. If you don't have reasons for your view, perhaps you can explain on this thread why you think it's permissible to believe something without reason. spetey

GoingwithChrist;

To save you from repeating the same truths and responding inquiries, I don't think it is worth it to continue in discussion with Spetey. I have done so with this issue, seemingly to a brick wall which does not respond, and the conclusion I had come to before I even began to deeply discuss this very issue, was that with Spetey, it is not at all an intellectual problem. It is a problem of the will. If you feel that God is still leading you to, by all means go for it! But I wish to save your precious time from continuous repetition. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

And no, Spetey, it does not give me pleasure to declare that. But alas, believe what you will.

The question: How can God allow mass murder? The answer to this question deals with not only the nature of God but also the nature of man. What kind of creatures (man) did God create?

Man is not a cosmic puppet and not all man will be saved from eternal separation from God for the demonstration of depravity. God created man, knowing that he would sin and would be provided a way of salvation by sending to man a Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ. I am open to private email if you want a more expansion of this answer.

Respectfully...

I agree that sin is the issue big of all being limited because of sin, the results limits us to see the whole big picture of a bigger princepal from which involves good and evil, knowledge is one thing, i recognize evil things, blame is another, it appears to be one but is it really another, finger pointing always got me into trouble the moment i saw my finger pointing to one to blame i saw i was pointing to myself..

"to blindly look upon that which you will never know."

Spetey,

Within the Christian (and other religions I suppose) there is what is called revealed knowledge, and there is also something call testimony.

There is acquired knowledge as well.

Both you and I have acquired knowledge. On different levels of course. Both have our own wisdom, experience, intelligence, and various life situations. We both have something to contribute to this world.

Without our Christian God, revealed knowledge through meditation, or enlightenment, is just an advanced form of acquired knowledge. One could go far with this, but one will still fall short.

I believe in salvation. An eternal life, based upon a set of reasoning factors that fit into my life, into my paradigm. Through personal revelation with God, and by finally admitting that the experiences I have led in life are because of Him, I have found and feel secure in my beliefs that the 'something more out there' is Him, and nothing or nobody else.

If you believe that there is nothing else, then so be it. But why sit there and even question God, unless deep down you want what we (as Christian believers) have.

If you do not want to truly find those deep theological answers to the morality, love, justice and mercy of God, then by all means stop asking.

I say this, since for the most part, deep down, many of us are giving you the same message, semantics aside of course.

For the most part, even I keep repeating myself in many different threads. This get's tiring, but still something tells me to continue on. To be a good Christian Soldier.

We give this knowledge to you, free of charge. However, for you to truly accept it into your heart, then in some sense, you can expect a surcharge by God.

We give you, along with all the tools from the Christian world, the means by which to begin to unlock the door to this revealed knowledge. You will always be blind to this knowledge unless you believe.

A believer can go through the motions their entire life, and then walk away. How? Well, they never truly let go, and fell into the Lord.

For if they truly found peace, love, kindness, mercy, and justice, along with honestly and earnestly working toward their eternal salvation, then why would they give it up???

For some the battle with the flesh will always win, for they know not what they do.

Am I right, and are you wrong. Based on a human level ~no. Within my belief system am I right and are you wrong, still ~ no. However within that realm, I might be wrong on some things, but you are dead wrong on most things in regards how we understand God.

I say this based on my opinion of what you have said in the past, with my own understanding of God's word. Are you saved? I am not passing that judgment upon you. Are you right? Again, in some ways, I am not sure, but you do post many good thought provoking questions.

Those are my thoughts...for the moment. Take care!



PBTG!

I like the book of ecclesiates chapters 3 and 4 for subjects like this.....

i agree with the acknowledgment of knowledge, even the most obtained knowledge is brought to naught without love..
1Corinthians 13:1-13 (spanish then english)
13:1 SI yo hablase lenguas humanas y ang?licas, y no tengo caridad, vengo ? ser como metal que resuena, ? c?mbalo que reti?e. 2 Y si tuviese profec?a, y entendiese todos los misterios y toda ciencia; y si tuviese toda la fe, de tal manera que traspasase los montes, y no tengo caridad, nada soy. 3 Y si repartiese toda mi hacienda para dar de comer a pobres, y si entregase mi cuerpo para ser quemado, y no tengo caridad, de nada me sirve. 4 La caridad es sufrida, es benigna; la caridad no tiene envidia, la caridad no hace sinraz?n, no se ensancha; 5 No es injuriosa, no busca lo suyo, no se irrita, no piensa el mal; 6 No se huelga de la injusticia, mas se huelga de la verdad; 7 Todo lo sufre, todo lo cree, todo lo espera, todo lo soporta. 8 La caridad nunca deja de ser: mas las profec?as se han de acabar, y cesar?n las lenguas, y la ciencia ha de ser quitada; 9 Porque en parte conocemos, y en parte profetizamos; 10 Mas cuando venga lo que es perfecto, entonces lo que es en parte ser? quitado. 11 Cuando yo era ni?o, hablaba como ni?o, pensaba como ni?o, juzgaba como ni?o, mas cuando ya fu? hombre hecho, dej? lo que era de ni?o. 12 Ahora vemos por espejo, en obscuridad; mas entonces veremos cara ? cara: ahora conozco en parte; mas entonces conocer? como soy conocido. 13 Y ahora permanecen la fe, la esperanza, y la caridad, estas tres: empero la mayor de ellas es la caridad.
13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have [the gift of] prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Love suffereth long, [and] is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Love never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall be done away; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

My, this has been a long and contentious discussion. Let me put an ore in this water.

I?ll start with the second premiss of the proposed logical proof: ?There is lots of unnecessary evil, such as the tsunami.? It will be my intention to reason for the necessity of this evil in God?s plan for man?s learning and progression in this life.

First, I believe that we would all acknowledge that adversity is a powerful teacher. The development of nearly every Christian virtue requires the presence of the conditions which evil and adversity creates. This fact is clearly presented in the Book of Mormon in the recording of a prophet father?s teachings to his son:

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. 2 Nephi 2:11

Let me propose a related syllogism:

1. God is omnipotent, therefore everything happens the way he wants it to happen (I believe that most of the Christians participating in these discussions would agree ).
2. Satan is real and he and his legions represent a force that is in opposition to the work and will of God which opposition God does not prevent.
3. Therefore, Satan and his legions must be part of God?s plan for this mortal existence.

Here is another Book of Mormon passage, from the same chapter.

And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. 2 Nephi 2:15-19

Yes, Satan and evil were and are a necessary part of God?s plan!

At the same time, I?m not saying that God created evil. Well, there is a sense in which it might be said that he did. To the extent that evil is disobedience to God commandments, it could be said that he is moral evil?s source, as without those commandments, moral evil would not exist. But, this reasoning would be flawed. Evil is to act contrary to God?s command. God is only the source of the freedom to so act. Without the commandment, man would not have the freedom to obey or disobey God, he would not be free to so act.

But, while evils of every kind abound in this world, ?God is not the creator of these evils.? You see, this is the whole reason for Adam and Eve in the Garden. In that creation, they were perfect, as was the garden. There was no flaw or evil in God?s ?creation.? At the same time, the seed was there, the opportunity for evil to enter the picture: God had given Adam and Eve a commandment. Yes, Satan was also there, not by God?s invitation, but certainly with his foreknowledge and tacit approval (God didn?t throw Satan out?but, he certainly could have, he is omnipotent). Evil entered this picture as Adam and Eve yielded to Satan?s temptation and partook of the forbidden fruit. Their act of disobedience (precisely what that act was is irrelevant, they did that which God had forbidden) made them morally unclean and no longer worthy to be in God?s presence.

By God?s decree or by the operation of some universal law, this act of disobedience caused, not only a great change in Adam and Eve, in that they became mortal, but a similar change in the earth and all of its inhabitants. Like the turning of a great switch, it was this singular act of disobedience that moved the earth from a paradisiacal and immortal state (no death) to our present state of mortality and the present geophysics of the earth. It is like Adam and Eve were thrust into a different dimension. Perhaps this is according to the operation of a universal law, well beyond the discovery of our science, that requires that a body can exist in an immortal state only under the condition of absolute moral purity. Perhaps the slightest sin destroys the balance of that existence and thrusts the whole system into a mortal state. God did not create our mortal bodies. God did not create the destructive forces of this world. Our mortality and that of the earth on which we live is the direct result of the sin of Adam and Eve, and the powers unleashed by that sin. It is also in fulfilment of the plan of God. God is bound?he cannot create evil or imperfection. His creation is always good and perfect.

Let me return again to the Book of Mormon:

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. 2 Nephi 2:22-25

You see, the reason that all of you, together with the philosophers and theologians of traditional Christianity, have had such a struggle with this and other significant questions is that you don?t know the plan of God. Many have looked upon man as if he were God?s special intelligent toy. They speak as if they believe that man has been created, not for the benefit of man, but for the glory and pleasure of God. With that view, it is difficult to make sense of much of this world. Certainly, it makes it easy to be an atheist or at least agnostic. God has given, to a modern prophet, this most significant and enlightening declaration regarding his purpose:

This is my work and my glory?to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Moses 1:39

God has created man for greatness. It is his intension to perfect us. I?m sure that most of you are familiar with the C. S. Lewis description of God?s plan for man: "Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on: you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently he starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of--throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were going to be made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself." Yes, it is God?s intent to make us perfect so that we might be worthy of living with him.

Some if you will object to my quoting the Book of Mormon. You will say, ?Teach us out of the Bible, we don?t believe this Book of Mormon; all of God?s truth is in the Bible!? Well, I understand your objection, I really do. But I have a problem doing as you wish. All of God?s truth just isn?t in the Bible. What?s there is true, it just isn?t all there. I can?t teach these things from the Bible. They are just not there!

So:

1. There is an all-good, all-powerful God, and he has not created any evil
   
2. There is lots of evil in this world and it is necessary, even the tsunami. It is the nature of of a mortal world, that kind of world in which we live. As Christ said, it rains on both the just and the unjust.
   
3. There is an all-good, all-powerful God who cares very much about each of us and wants to give us that experience that will move us towards perfection.

An earlier post said it best:

?The fact is, God cares more about our spiritual health than our physical health. Our bodies are going to die. Our souls are going to live forever. And God's ability to protect our souls from eternal judgment and eternal death is more significant than his ability to protect our bodies from disease or death. Trapped in these bodies and in this time, it is hard for us to grasp. So in our prayer requests for safe travel and physical health, and in our more desperate prayers amid great difficulties, we try to apply to our bodies his promises of protection for our souls, and we're left disappointed, accusing him of falling down on the job. But we will continue to be disappointed in him until our value system lines up with his, until we value the eternal life of our souls more than the limited life of our mortal bodies, until we understand that God's primary agenda is kingdom building. It may cost us our very lives, and he is okay with that.?

This process of perfection will continue as we depart this life and move on to eternity. But, it is in this life that we begin that process. We must exercise our agency to choose God's way. This will put us on that path leading towards moral perfection. The ancient prophet, Lehi, continued:

And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time (Lehi lived in about 600 B.C.), that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. 2 Nephi 2:26-27.

Now, I realize that much of what I?ve said in this post contradicts what you have been taught all your lives and what Christianity has taught since about the third century. Remember, the Christianity of Galileo?s day condemned him and his teachings, but it wasn?t Galileo who was wrong!

Whats funny to me is when people say there can't be a God beacause of "to much evil" in the world. What they seem to miss is that the very statement itself not only invokes His existence but the moral law we see in life. For you automatically use a moral framework to even pose the statement being that murder is wrong or evil. Some would say objective morality can exist with out God. Whats funny is this can't be explained in natural terms. For murder to be wrong this means life is intrinsically valuable. But Who gives life value if everything is purely natural? Most would say "my life is valuable", but who gave us this privilage? Man? Society? Governments? If that were the case then the value of life would be extrinsic even though it seems we are born with this right. Either way, the only way you can posit murder as being wrong is if this IS a moral universe and how can you say this is a moral universe if everything is purely natural? If the world was purely natural could the question even be posed? And why do the same people who say God is "immoral" if he does choose to take a life ...then go commit abortion and claim that as a "moral" right?
Strange logic if you ask me.

Atheists love to bring this arguement to the table...and many "honest" agnostics. How could a loving God alow "evil" to happen in this world. Well for 1 lets see if I can break this down with out having to write a book in here.

Lets look at a couple different options in comparison to the reality currently live in..

1. God made a world completely with out evil.
2. God made world where we could ONLY choose good.
3. God doesnt exist and there really is no objective moral frame of reference.

There are a few other alternatives but lets just look at these 3 for now.

In my mind the only way Free Will and LOVE can really exist is if we have the ability and option to make the wrong or right choice.

Otherwise any response we give would be robotic and not genuine but manufactured.

Every normal parent desires the love of there children to be freely given not forced or manipulated and vice versa.

Anyways im rambling..sorry..

My ending point is this ....

If you say suffering is "evil"!!!

Then you are saying there is evil in this world ... by default you're also saying there is "good" is this world.

With out evil there is no good. In order to do this you have to apply a "moral law" or moral frame work to differenciate between the the two.

If there is a moral law then there is a moral law giver.

If you reject the existence of God then there is no evil and there is no good. So the question is moot anyways.

When someone rejects God based on "evil" being present in this reality he/she commits intellectual suicide or atleast the argument does.

Christopher wrote (View Post): › Atheists love to bring this arguement to the table...and many "honest" agnostics. How could a loving God alow "evil" to happen in this world. Well for 1 lets see if I can break this down with out having to write a book in here. Lets look at a couple different options in comparison to the reality currently live in.. 1. God made a world completely with out evil. 2. God made world where we could ONLY choose good. 3. God doesnt exist and there really is no objective moral frame of reference. There are a few other alternatives but lets just look at these 3 for now. In my mind the only way Free Will and LOVE can really exist is if we have the ability and option to make the wrong or right choice. Otherwise any response we give would be robotic and not genuine but manufactured. Every normal parent desires the love of there children to be freely given not forced or manipulated and vice versa. Anyways im rambling..sorry.. My ending point is this .... If you say suffering is "evil"!!! Then you are saying there is evil in this world ... by default you're also saying there is "good" is this world. With out evil there is no good. In order to do this you have to apply a "moral law" or moral frame work to differenciate between the the two. If there is a moral law then there is a moral law giver. If you reject the existence of God then there is no evil and there is no good. So the question is moot anyways. When someone rejects God based on "evil" being present in this reality he/she commits intellectual suicide or atleast the argument does.

Christopher I like your last post.

Suffering in and of itself is not evil.

The moral agency of man is freely given to all from God and as such all are held accountable for their free exercise thereof. This applies to each as an individuals, or as leaders of families, or governments.

If there are actual injustices, we need look only to ourselves and the exercise of the gift of agency.

When some throw out these "straw man" arguments such as the tsunami disaster as their claim against an unjust God, I see an argument riddled with flaws.

Do I claim to know all the reasons for such a disaster? Certainly not!

Did the disaster itself in any way shape or form strip God of his matchless power to redeem, resurrect, and bring salvation to those who perished?

Since all must die at some point, does this create any real issue in the eternal scheme of things?

Are some of the righteous destroyed with the wicked in such a disaster?

How many are aware of the massive child sex exploitation that ran rampant in that area, with little or no righteous exercise of moral agency by the perpetrators or government to stop such atrocities?

Sometimes there is a "silver lining" even in disaster. One thing is certain, this put a sudden end to the abuse and horrible disease inflicted upon those precious little ones!

By the way, where were the millions of voices crying against the abuse of those little ones?

How many million people worldwide either demonstrated compassion or the lack thereof to assist their fellow man in such a tragic disaster?

Could this tsunami disaster be but one of the many refining tests that we all face which test our very metal of compassion and care for our fellow man?

When a society becomes morally impossible, is there also not a factor of mercy shown by the creator in ending the suffering and abuse of those little ones? Did not the Master himself so state that it would be better to have a millstone hung around one's neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea than to so offend even one of these "little ones"?

The point of the argument from evil is that the attributes all-good and all-powerful are such that the existence of evil is an anomaly. The premise is that an all-good God would do everything within His power to prevent and/or stop evil from occuring, especially to innocent people, because allowing such acts when one has the power to stop them is not good. In fact, were you or I in a position with the ability to stop a person from committing an evil act against another person, but did nothing, we would be culpable by legal standards and could possibly be tried as an accessory to the act. But since evil does exist, there is a dilemma, because an all-good, all-powerful God could easily stop all evil. This means that either God is not all-good, not all-powerful, or neither.

Which leads us to the original phrasing of Epicurus.
If God is willing to stop evil, but not able, then He is impotent. If God is able, but unwilling, then He is wicked. If God is willing and able, then whence comes evil?

Why is Evil allowed?

Nator, I agree with you on the point that many have great difficulty in dealing with the issue of evil and it’s existence. This dilemma has been tossed back and forth many times in this thread without a very clear answer for a long period of time.

Why would God allow evil to exist in the first place?

How do we give clear answer to this dilemma?

Has God required of us something more than what he has had to face?

Does the existence of evil make God unjust?

Does it really make God impotent?

Or is there an infinite and divine plan fraught with great wisdom by him allowing evil to co-exist during this mortal period of our lives?

May I kindly suggest that his plan and purposes for our eternal progress might dictate that the use of an all omnipotent power to eradicate evil entirely may also be the very means that would deny and destroy the very power of agency that he had previously given to all.

Let’s take for example a very elementary and fundamental example. We may see a baby chick struggling to break free from it’s shell. We have the power to quickly break the shell and remove the captive chick. My what a great job we did to free this tiny bird so it would not have to struggle! We had the “power to free it”, but what is the result? You already know the answer! It is no secret that the very difficult struggle encountered by the bird, was also the very thing needed to prepare it to survive outside the shell.

This life is not a new test for God or his matchless wisdom.

Putting it in the most fundamental terms, this life is a “laboratory for us to grow” or a probationary period where we need to learn for ourselves to become like our creator. For even in the Garden of Eden we see Adam faced with a catch 22 dilemma. He was not deceived. He did not rebel. He simply weighed his options and saw the necessity of choosing to be with his wife, thus allowing him to fulfill a greater commandment. What was God’s response? “The man has become as one of us to know good and evil” Their eyes were opened, they now understood the difference between good and evil. They understood for the first time regarding the laws of God and the consequences of either good or bad choices. In essence they placed themselves fully into the very plan God had ordained for man, that of mortality or a period of testing and refining. If they failed to make that decision, it would have resulted in the very frustration of God’s original plan. A careful search and review of the scriptures fully confirm what has just been stated.

The following counsel of a dying father to his sons gives an insight and further answer to why good and evil or opposition in all things must exist:


And now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my first-born in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.
Nevertheless, Jacob, my first-born in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.
Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God. Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.
And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.
And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.
Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth. Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
Wherefore, he is the first fruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved. And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—
For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth. And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
And the aMessiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Quote: › Let’s take for example a very elementary and fundamental example. We may see a baby chick struggling to break free from it’s shell. We have the power to quickly break the shell and remove the captive chick. My what a great job we did to free this tiny bird so it would not have to struggle! We had the “power to free it”, but what is the result? You already know the answer! It is no secret that the very difficult struggle encountered by the bird, was also the very thing needed to prepare it to survive outside the shell.

This is an excellent example, but I think it fails in regards to the existence of evil.

I said

Quote: › In fact, were you or I in a position with the ability to stop a person from committing an evil act against another person, but did nothing, we would be culpable by legal standards and could possibly be tried as an accessory to the act.

Let's put a concrete example with this.

Say you come upon a man who clearly has the intent to rape an innocent young woman. Let us further assume you have some means to stop this man (be it a weapon, raw strength, or whatever). Do you prevent this evil from happening?

If you do not, and instead simply watch (in horror possibly) as the man carries out his misdeed, you can be held partly accountable for your inaction, because you had the ability to prevent or stop the action, but did not.

So, why then does God get off the hook when He has the power to prevent such an act but does not?

Nator, I appreciate and quite possibly understand your concrete example which you used to illustrate your point.

I cannot answer for others, but only respond based on my personal experience and training.

I have had wide experience in emergency management training covering a large variety of scenarios. With this background, my response to your stated scenario is very focused, decisive and executed in such a manner that will eliminate the threat or crime in progress by any and every means at my disposal.

Having myself been a survivor or victim of a hostage situation and intended mutilation slaying at a very young age, I have fist hand knowledge and experience of how one may feel in that situation. I guess it would be an understatement to say that I have an absolute zero tolerance for this type of abuse.

My response does not contain or require any if’s or question of should, but only of how and by what available means to engage and neutralize the threat immediately.

If you had read and reflected on my previous post more carefully, you would clearly understand not only God’s supreme position, but also the fact that he has allowed us to be tested and in turn learn to act and not to be acted upon. [U]This life is not God’s test, but is clearly a probationary period in which our integrity is being tested.

If he were to intervene in all the daily affairs of our lives, what lessons would we learn?

Could righteousness really be brought to pass?

Could mighty and powerful faith be developed?

Could we learn to overcome evil and become partakers of the divine nature?

God so loved the world that he placed his only begotten son in the flesh in this same proving and testing ground. Christ faced more reviling, abuse, ridicule, greater temptations, pain and suffering above and beyond anything that any of the rest of us will ever endure in this life. So where do any of us have just cause to complain?

As I see it, none of us has any just cause to complain unless we have had to endure more than Christ.

We are absolutely free to choose to follow Christ’s example and to be witnesses of him at all times and in all places and in all circumstances! It matters not what our fellow man may do to us if we are true to him for the promise is sure. It matters not what trials we face, or injustices from our fellow men, the end result will surely be the crown he has promised us of “eternal life” and to “become partakers of the divine nature” and to “make our calling and election sure”.

God never promised that it would be easy for his only begotten son.

God never promised that it would be easy for any of the rest of us.

Only that it would be worth it.