----------------------------------- Harrie Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:49 pm Re: Bible Questions ----------------------------------- “Adam was created without a sinful nature. He still fell.” Compare it with an inherited tendency to alcoholism, perhaps. Sure not everybody with such a tendency will end up being an alcoholic, and sure some people who do not have a born in tendency to alcoholism still will turn into an alcoholic. But you will agree that the one born with such a tendency will have a higher chance to become an alcoholic? So here my question again: Has a baby with an inherited sinful nature just as much CHANCE (percentage wise) than a baby that is born without an inherited sinful nature? Me: “What has this sinful nature for effect in that case?” “I'm not following this question. Please rephrase that for me.” If the chances for those two babies stay exactly the same, what has this inherited sinful nature for effect in real life? Me: “you will never ever be able to find Him, as that sinful nature has warped your mind so we can’t see reality as it is, isn’t that correct?” “Yes, you can still find Him. You just have to seek.” No, seeking is not enough. If you seek the truth, you will not always be able to see the truth in Christ, that is how I even lost my faith in the first place. A bit strange in a way, as I DID belief in Christ, although perhaps in an incorrect manner, but from there I should have found my way to the correct view of Christ? Instead I lost all faith... But this is my problem step by step: You told me that our inherited sinful nature warps the way we see reality, so we can’t see reality as it is. You also claim that if we seek Christ, that this warping of reality does not matter. But if I seek the truth in Christ with my warped perception, I can NOT see the truth in Christ, so I CAN’T open my heart to Christ and let Him in to begin with, so to speak. Can you understand my problem? It would be the same as if I ask you to open your heart to Brahma. Can you do that? I bet you can’t, as from a Hindu’s point of view, your perception might be warped so you can’t see the truth in Brahma. Me: “IF their minds would not be warped by their sinful nature, they would no doubt see the truth of Christ immediately, don’t you think?” “No. Adam walked with God and he still sinned and disobeyed God.” So NOT having a sinful nature is not a guarantee to see the truth, may I word it like that? Or else Adam would not have sinned I suppose? How come that seeing God in person makes so little impression on someone that was created directly by God without even a sinful nature? Me: “So in a way, God condemns most people on this planet to eternal hell, simply by letting them be born in the wrong place or time, being born with a sinful nature?” “God is not far from any one person on this planet.” Where do most Hindu’s live? Will a Hindu end up in heaven or hell? Where do most Muslims live? Will a Muslim end up in heaven or hell? Where do most Buddhists live? Will a Buddhist end up in heaven or hell? Where do most Christians live? Will a Christian end up in heaven or hell? “I know a person, a millionaire and a very esteemed lawyer outside of Washington D.C., he pays people a small wage and gives them a house to live in in exchange for labor. This is not very different from slavery described in the bible. Is this man wrong? OR, should he let those people go without work?” Are the people free to leave if they want to? Can the workers be inherited by the children of the millionaire? May the millionaire beat his workers with a rod to discipline them? If the answer to all questions is no, than this situation is not at all as the one described in the Bible! Have you forgotten the verse in the Bible that clearly states that slaves can be inherited by the children of the slave owners? Leviticus: 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. This is God’s law: slaves are owned forever and can be inherited by the children of the owner. Does that sound like a kind millionaire? How do you explain this verse to yourself, trying to keep in mind that God is supposed to be good? How can a good God ever inspire to something like that? There are even different rules for the children of Israel! So God clearly discriminates between the children of Israel and all other people. And yes, we talked about this, you will tell me that this was normal in those days, and probably it was. But God’s message is supposed to lead us! Not confirm our mistakes! Exactly verses like this one, and the way Christians tend to forget them or explain them, is why I can’t belief that the Bible is divine inspired! “They were to be stoned together.” Why does that matter? We don’t even know what happened to that man, do we? Perhaps he was stoned before or after, for all we know. May I see the verses that require that the man and woman should be stoned together at the same time? The point is this woman, that needed to be stoned according to God’s own laws. “And besides, you are missing the point. God is allowed to forgive any and all violations against His laws. They are His.” Then Jesus should have said so, instead of saying that the one without sin should throw the first stone. Jesus even came down to earth to fulfill God’s law as it Must to be fulfilled no matter what, Jesus even HAD TO die to fulfill His law, isn’t that true? Yet this part He does not need to fulfill? “Jesus is God. The laws are His. If He wants to forgive, it is His prerogative.” If Jesus IS God, like you say, breaking His own laws would undermine the laws themselves, don’t you think? Jesus also said that nothing in the laws should be changed, and Jesus/God thought the laws were important enough to kill over, as He clearly did during the many generations before He came to earth in the flesh as that was needed to fulfill His own laws. “Only after He was crucified.” So the Mosaic laws were still in place, is that correct? Yet God Himself did not obey them, yet also NEEDS to obey them by being crucified for our sake? Me: “but I think having to obey such laws was a curse in itself, don’t you think?” “Yes I do. That is why Adam's sin had the effect it does. He had one simple test. Don't eat the one certain fruit in the middle of the garden. Spelled out quite plainly and he STILL blew it.” But God knew that Adam would blow it, didn’t He? After all, God is all knowing? So that was the whole purpose of that tree, and why it was smack in the middle right in sight, wasn’t it? Adam was created by God, and put in a garden with a forbidden tree right in the middle of it. Adam HAD to sin, according to God’s plan. Anything else doesn’t make sense at all. So God created Adam to sin. And He made His creation in such a way that we would all inherit this sinful nature. After all, if God would not have wanted us to inherit a sinful nature, we would not have inherited this sinful nature, would we? So this inherited sinful nature is God’s will too! After all, we can’t help that Adam sinned, can we? “Thinking you don't NEED Christ is one of the worst sins anybody could ever commit.” Yes, worse than murder, rape, genocide, for not seeing the truth as a result of a inherited sinful nature we are born with. “And before you spout that it is unfair, is the death of Christ on our behalf fair?” The death of Christ still does not make sense to me. I still don’t see why He had to die to fulfill His own law, while other parts of His law could easily be denied. “Why do you deserve to have a potential savior in Christ when all you do is ridicule Him?” Think about all those people who had never even heard of Christ, so are unable to ridicule Him, but still live a very good life. Or all of those that did hear about Him, but are in the same position to Christ as you are to Brahma? And you KNOW you CAN’T convert to Brahma. “Because, like the good guy who gave all his money to the poor and the repentant mass murderer, we are all equal in the sight of God.” No, we are not. If we are not born in the West we have a lesser chance of going to heaven, and woman are of less value than men. And Israelites are better than all others. Me: “You can tell the tree by the fruit; that bit is wise indeed.” “You got that right.” Trick question: One person has killed over 2 million, while the other killed 10 individuals, who would you lock up? Me: “That is not what I read in those laws at all.(“God tried this approach by having the Jews treat their slaves as equals to themselves.”)” Then read it again. Let's do so: Leviticus: 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. Exodus 21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. Leviticus 19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. I could go on and on for quite a while, but I guess you get the picture. And I left that one out about that beating with a rod, we know that one by know. Are all of those laws divine inspired anti slavery? Me: “God could have clearly condemned slavery, He definitely did not do that.” “Yes He did.” You have numerous pro slavery laws in the OT and one anti slavery remark in the NT, from the SAME God. Me: “Should the Bible not be a guide to your life?” “I've said it before, the OT points out our need for Jesus Christ. Why can't you understand that?” How can laws about slavery point out our need for Jesus Christ? You said Jesus IS God, so He made those laws Himself? Then we even have completely silly laws: Leviticus 19:27 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. “I have given you resources to explain that but you reject them. So, no.” I can Google such things myself, but they tell me nothing as I do not understand them. Perhaps it would help if you would use your own mind, your own words and your own logic to explain, instead of showing me sites that provide me with words but not with insight. How does divine inspiration work and why do you not doubt it? Can you explain that in your own words?