Ro: No, I will first see it proved by the Scriptures. Let me have pen, ink and books. I will take upon me so plainly to set forth the matter that the contrary should be proved to be true. Let any man confer with me that would, by writing.

Ch: Nay, it shall not be permitted ye. You shalt never have so much proffered you as you hast now, if you refuse it, if you will not now consent and agree to the Catholic Church, there are two things, mercy and justice. If you refuse the queens mercy now, then shalt ye have justice ministered unto you.

Ro: I never offended nor was disobedient unto her grace, yet will I not refuse her mercy. But if this shall be denied, to confer by writing to try out the truth, then is it not well. Ye yourselves all be they that brought me to the knowledge of the pretended primacies of the Bishop of Rome, when I was a young man, twenty years ago. Will ye now, without collation (conference), have me to say and do the contrary? I cannot be so persuaded.

Ch: If you will not receive the Bishop of Rome to be the supreme head of the Catholic Church, then shalt you never have her mercy. You must be sure, as touching conferring and trial, I am forbidden by the Scriptures to use any conferring and trial with you. For St. Paul taketh me that I shall shun and eschew an heretic after one or two admonitions, knowing that such a man is overthrown and is faulty in that he is condemned by his own judgement.
Titus 3: 10-11.

Ro: My Lord, “nego assuptu." I deny it, you take in hand to prove it is to wit, that I am a heretic. Prove you it first and then allege the aforesaid text.

Ch: But still the Lord Chancellor played on one string: If you wilt enter into one church
Catholic, with us, or else you shall never have so much proffered you again as you have now.

Ro: I will find it first in the Scriptures and see it tried thereby, before I receive him to be supreme head.

Bishop of Worcester: Why do you not know what is in your creed-credo eccliam. S. Cath?

Ro: I find not the Bishop of Rome there, for catholic signifies not the Romish Church. It signifies the consent of all true teaching churches of all times and of all ages. But how should the Romish Bishop be one of them, which taketh so many doctrines which are plainly and directly against the word of God? Should he be the head of the Catholic Church, that so doeth? It is not possible.

Ch: Show me one of them, one, one, let me hear one!

Ro: I remembered myself, that among so many I were best to show one. Well said I, I will show you one.

Ch: Let me hear it.

Ro: The Bishop of Rome and his Church say, sing and read all that they do, in Latin in the
congregation, which is directly and plainly against the word of God. That is to witness against ye. First Corinthians chapter 14.

Ch: I deny it. I deny that it is against the word of God. Let me see you prove it. How prove you it?

Ro: Thus, quote I and began to say the text, qui loquitur lingua, etc., to speak with tongues is to speak with a strange tongue, as Latin or Greek. So to speak is not to speak unto men, but to God.

Ch: This he granted, that they spake not unto men, but unto God.

Ro: Well, then it is in vain to men.

Ch: No, for one man speaketh in one tongue and another in another and all well.

Ro: Nay, I will prove it that neither to God or to man, but to the wind. Willingly to have declared how and after what sort these two texts do agree, for they must agree. They be both the sayings of the Holy Ghost, spoken by the Apostle St. Paul, that is to wit, to speak not to man but to God and to speak into the wind and so to have gone forward with the proof of my begone matter. Here arose a noise and confusion.

Ch: To speak unto God and not unto God, were impossible, said the Lord Chancellor.

Ro: I will prove them possible.

Lord William Howard: No, said my Lord William Howard to my Lord Chancellor, Now I will bear you witness (what witness it was, know all the Godly ways) that he is out of your way, for he granted first that they which speak in a strange speech unto God and now he saith the contrary, that they speak neither to God nor to man.

Ro: I have granted, said I, turning myself to my Lord William Howard, as you report. I have alleged the one text and now come to the other and they must agree. I can make them to agree and as for you, ye understand not the matter.

L.W.H: I understand so much, that it is not possible.

Secretary Brown: This is a point of sophistries.

Ch: Then my Lord Chancellor began to tell my Lord William Howard, that when he was in high Dutchland, they all, which before had prayed and used their service in Dutch, began then to turn part to Latin and part into Dutch.

Bishop of Worcester: Yea and at Whittenburge (in Germany) too, said my Lord of Worcester. (continued)

Ro: Yea, Quote I (but I could not be heard for the noise), in a University, where men for the most part understand the Latin. Yet not all in Latin and would have told the order and to have gone forward in both to have answered my Lord and to have proved the thing that I had taken in hand. But, perceiving their talking and noise it was vain to think thus in my heart, suffering them, in the meantime, to talk one thing and another. Alas, neither will these men hear me if I speak, neither will they suffer me to write. There is no remedy but let them alone and commit the matter to God. Yet I began to have gone forward and say that I would make the text to agree and prove all my purpose well enough.

Ch: No, no, you can prove nothing by the Scripture. The Scripture is dead and must have a lively exposition.

Ro: No, no, the Scripture is alive, but let me go forward with my purpose.

Bishop of Worcester: Nay, nay, all heretics have alleged the scripture for them and therefor must we have a lively exposition for them.

Ro: Yea, all heretics have alleged the scriptures for them, but were comforted by the Scriptures and by none other expositours.

Bishop of Worcester: Yea, but the heretics would not confess that they were overcome by the Scriptures. I am sure of it.

Ro: I believe that, yet were they overcome thereby and in all councils were disputed with and overthrown by the Scriptures. Here I would have declared how they ought to have proceeded in these days and so have I come again to my purpose, but it was impossible. For one asked one thing and another said another. My Lord Chancellor bade to prison with me again.

Ch: Away, away, said he, we have more to talk with. If you would not be reformed (for so he termed it), away, away.

Ro: Up I stood, for I had kneeled all the while.

Sir Richard Then said Sir Richard Southwell unto me (which stood in a window by), you
Southwell: will not burn in this gear, when it cometh to ye purpose. I know well it. (Sir Richard Southwell had also been of the Privy Councils of Henry VIII and Edward VI, bending his conscience to suit the requirements of the times.)

Ro: Sir, I cannot tell, but I trust to my Lord God, yes, lifting up my eyes unto heaven.

Bishop of Ely: Then my Lord of Ely, very gently and truly, told me much of the queen majesties pleasure and meaning and set out it with large words. Saying that she took them that would not receive the Bishop of Rome supremacy to be unworthy to have her mercy.
(Continued)

Ro: I said, I would not refuse her mercy. I never offended her in all my life. I besought her grace and all her honors to be good unto me, reserving my conscience.

S. Bourne: No, quote they a great sort of them and specially secretary Brown, a married Priest. and hath not offended the law.

Ro: I said, that I had not broken the queen's law, nor any law of the Realm therein, for I married where it was lawful.

S. Bourne, & Ch: Where was it, said they, thinking that to be unlawful in all places.

Ro: In Dutchland and if ye had here in England made an open law that Priests might have wives, I would not have done, said I. Had not the laws of the realm permitted it before? Then was there a great noise, some saying that I was come to soon with such a source. I should find a sower coming of it and some one thing and some another.
One said, I could never perceive well how that there was ever Catholic man or country that ever granted that a Priest might have a wife.
The Catholic Church never denied marriage to Priest nor to any other man, said I and therewith was going out of the chamber, the Sargent that brought me thither having me by the arm.

Worcester: Then the Bishop of Worcester turned his face towards me and said that I whist not where the Church was or is.

Ro: I said, yes, that could I well tell, but therewith went the Sargent with me out the door.
This was the very true effect of all that was spoken unto me and of all that I answered there unto. Here I would gladly made a more perfect answer to all the former objections and also a due proof of all that I had taken in hand. But at this present I was informed that I should, the next morning come to further answer. Wherefor I am compelled to leave out that which I would most gladly have done. Desiring herewith the hearty and unfeigned help of the prayers of all Christ's true members.
The true Impes (this word has a changed meaning since then) of the true and unfeigned Catholic Church, that the Lord God of all consolation will now be my comfort, aid, strength buckler, and shield. Also of all my brethren that are in the same case and distress.
That I and they all may despise all manner of threats and cruelty and even the bitter burning fire and dreadful dart of death and stick like true soldiers to our dear and loving Captain Christ, our only Redeemer and Savior and also the only true head of the Catholic Church. Ephesians 1:22 Which thing all the Bishops of Rome cannot do and that we traitorously run not out of his tents, or rather out of the playing field from him, in the most jeopardy of the battle, but persevere in the fight. If he will not otherwise deliver us, till we be most cruelly slain of his enemies.

For this, I most heartily and at this present, with weeping tears, most instantly and earnestly desire and beseech you all to pray. Also if I die, to be good to my poor wife, being a stranger and all my little souls, hers and my children. Who with all the whole faithful and true Catholic Church of Christ may the Lord of life and death save, keep and defend, in all the troubles and assaults of this vain world. To bring at last everlasting salvation to the true and sure inheritance of all Christians, Amen, Amen. The 27th of January at night.

The confession of John Rogers made and that should have been made, if I might have been heard, the 28 and 29 of January anno Dni. 1554. (Old style 1555.)

First, being asked again if I would come into one church with the Bishops and the whole Realm, as was now concluded by Parliment and all the Realm converted to the Catholic Church of Rome and so receive the mercy before proffered me. Arising again with the whole Realm out of the schism and error in which we had long been, with recantation of my errors. I answered that before.

I could not well tell what “his mercy” meant, but now I understand. It was a mercy of the Anti-Christian Church of Rome, which I utterly refused and that the arysinge (arguing?) which he spake of was a very falling into error and false doctrine. That I had been and would be able, by Gods grace, to prove that all the doctrine that ever I had taught was true and Catholic. That was provable by the Scriptures and the authority of the Fathers that lived 400 years after the death of Christ.
(continued)

Ch: That should not, nor might, or ought to be granted me, quoted he. For I was but a private man and might not be heard against the determination of the whole Realm. When a Parliment hath concluded a thing, should one or any private person have authority to discuss whether they had done right or wrong? No, that may not be.

Ro: I answered shortly, that all the laws of man might not rule the word of God, nor could not, but that they all must be discussed and judged thereby and obey thereto. My conscience nor no Christians could be satisfied with such laws as disagree therefrom.


Ch: But the Lord Chancellor began a long tale to a very small purpose concerning my answer and defaced me, that there was nothing wherefore I should be heard, but arrogance and pride and vain glory, etc.

Ro: I also granted my ignorance to be greater than I could express, or that he took it. But yet feared not, by Gods assistance and strength, to be able by writing to perform my word. Neither was I, thank God therefore, so utterly ignorant as he would have made me. But all was of God, to whom be thanks rendered therefore. Proud man was I never one, nor yet vain glorious. All the world knew well, said I, where and on which side pride, arrogance and vain glory was. It was a poor pride that was or is in us, God knoweth it, said I.

Ch: Then he said, that I at first hath condemned the queen and the whole Realm to be of the Church of anti-Christ and burdened me highly there-with-all.

Ro: I answered, that the queens Majesty. (God save her grace.) would have done well enough, if it had not been for his counsel.

Ch: He said, the queen went before him and that It was her own motion.

Ro: I said, I could not nor would ever believe it.

Bishop of Carlisle: Then said Doctor Aldrich, the Bishop of Carlisle, that the Bishops would bear him witness.

Ro: Yea, quote I, I believe it well and with that the people laughed. For that day were many there, but on the morrow they had kept the doors shut and would let none in but the Bishops adherents and servants in manner.

Mr. Cot. & secretary Bourne: Then Mr. controller (Sir Robert Rochester) and secretary Bourne, would stand up also to bear him witness and did.

Ro: I said, it was no great matter and, to say the truth, thought that they were good helpers thereto themselves and as great impetraters and movers of the queen thereto as was the Lord
Chancellor. But I said nothing therein, knowing that they were too strong and mighty of
power and that they should be believed before me. Yea, before our Savior Jesus Christ and all his Prophets and Apostles thereto in these days.
(Continued)

Ch: Then, after many words, he asked me what I meant concerning the sacrament? Stood up and put off his cap and all his fellow Bishops, of which there were a great sort. New men which I knew not, many of them asking whether I believed the sacrament to be the very body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ, that was born of the Virgin Mary and hanged on the cross, really, substantially, etc.

Ro: I answered, that I had often told him that it was a matter in which I was not to meddle and therefore suspected of my Brethren to be of a contrary opinion. But, seeing the falsehood of
their doctrine in all other points and the defense thereof only by force and cruelty, thought their doctrine in this matter to be as false as the rest. For Christ could not be corporally there and I could not otherwise understand really and substantially to signify that corporally. So Christ could not be there and in heaven also.

Here, I somewhat set out his charity after this sort, 0 my Lord, quote I, you have dealt with me most cruelly. For you have sent me to prison without Law and against the Law and kept me there almost a year and a half. For I was almost half a year in my house(under house arrest), where I was obedient unto you, God it knoweth, and spake with no man. I now have been a full year in Newgate, at great cost and charges, having thereto a wife and ten children to feed and had, never a penny of my living, neither of the prebend, nor of the residence, neither of the Vicarage of the Sepulchers, against the law.

Ch: He answered, that D. (Doctor) Ridley, that had given them to me, was an usurper, and therefor I was the unjust possessioner thereof.

Ro: Was the King, then an usurper, quote I, that gave D. Ridley the Bishopric?

Ch: Yea quote he and began to set out the wrongs that the King had done them both. I mean the Bishop of London and to himself, but yet, quote he, I misuse my terms to call the King usurper. But the words were gone out of the abundance of the heart before and I think that he was not very sorry for it. I might have said more concerning the matter and also concerning Sepulchers, but did not.

Ro: I asked him, what for he sent me to prison?

Ch: He said, because I preached against the queen.

Ro: I answered, that was not so and I would be bound to prove and stand to the trial of the law. That no man should be able to prove it and thereupon would set my life. I preached, quote I, a sermon at the Cross, (Paul's Cross Chapel), after the queen came to the Tower, but therein was nothing said against the queen. Witness to all the audience, which was not small and that he had after examination, let me go at liberty, after the preaching of the sermon.

Ch: Yea, but you didest read thy lectures, against the commandments of the council.

Ro: That I did not. Let it be proved and let me die for it. Thus have you now, against the law of God and man, handled me and never sent for me. Never conferred with me, never spake of any learning, till now, that you have gotten a whip to whip me with and sword to cut off my neck. If I will not condescend unto your mind, this charity doth all the world understand.

I might and would have added, if I might have been suffered to speak, that it had been time enough to take away mens living’s and thereto to have imprisoned them after that they had offended laws. For they be good citizens that break not laws and worthy of praise and not punishment. But it was too much and these words I speak, to keep men in prison so long, till they might catch a man in the law, and so kill him.

I could and would have added the example of Daniel, which, by a crafty devised law, was cast into the lions den. I might have declared that I most humbly desired to be set at liberty. By sending my wife unto him with a supplication (being great with child) and with her eight honest women, or there about, to Richmond at Christmas, while I was yet in my house. I wrote two supplications to him out of Newgate and sent my wife unto him many times. Mr. John Cosnold also, that worthy man, who is now departed in the Lord, labored for me and so did many other worthy men also take pains in the matter. These things do declare my Lord Chancellor, Anti-Christian charity, that he hath and doth seek my blood and the destruction of my poor wife and ten children. (his eleventh child was the unborn child referred to above).

This was the short summary of the words spoken the first day, the 28th of January, at afternoon, after Mr. Hooper had been first and Cardmaker the second. Which forsook us and stake not to his tackle, but shrank from under the banner of our Master and Captain Christ the Lord. Grant him to return and fight with us, till we be smitten down together, if the Lords will be so to permit it. For yet shall not an hair of our heads perish against his will, but with his will, whereunto, the same Lord grant us to be obedient unto the end. Amen! Sweet, mighty and merciful Lord Jesus, the Son of David and of God! Amen! Let every true Christian say and pray.

Ch: And then, about four of the clock, the Lord Chancellor said, that he must let use with me the charity of the Church (this manner of charity, do all true Christians well understand, that is, the same that the fox doth with the chickens, and the wolf with the lambs). He gave respite till the next morning to see if I would remember my self well, to come to the Catholic (so he calleth his Anti-Christian, false Church again) and repent and they would receive me to mercy.

Ro: I said, that I never was out of the true Catholic Church, nor ever would be. But into his church would I, by Gods grace, never come.

Ch: Well, then, is our Church false and Anti-Christian?

Ro: Yea.
(continued)

Ch: And what is the doctrine of the Sacrament?

Ro: False, quote I and cast my hands abroad. Then said one, that I was a player, to whom I answered not, passing of his mock.

Ch: Come again tomorrow, between 9. and 10.

Ro: I am ready to come again, whensoever you call and so was I brought by the Sheriffs to the Compter (a prison) in Southwark. Mr. Hooper going before me and a great multitude of people, being so pressed, that we had much ado to go in the streets. Thus much was done the 28th of January.

The 29th about 9 of the clock, we were sent for in the morning and by the sheriffs fetched from the Compter in Southwark to the church again, that is, to St. Mary-over-the-way to
St. Mary Overy, where we were the day before. When Mr. Hooper was condemned, as I understood afterward, they then sent they for me.

Ch: And the Lord Chancellor said unto me, Rogers, here you wast yesterday. We gave you liberty to remember thy self this night, whether that you would come to the holy Catholic Church of Christ again or not. Tell us now what you have determined. Whether that you will be repentative, sorry and will return and take mercy again.

Ro: My Lord, I have remembered myself right well. What you yesterday laid before me and desire you to give me leave to declare my mind, what I have to say there unto. I shall answer you to your demanded question. When I yesterday desired that I might be suffered, by the Scriptures and the authority of the first, best, and purest Church, to defend my doctrine by writing, meaning not only the Primacy, but also all the doctrine that ever I had preached.

You answered that it might not nor ought not to be granted me, for I was a private man. Truth it is quote I, that the Parliment was above all the authority of all private persons. Might not I have the sentence thereof found faulty by me, being but a private person. Yet, my Lord, I am able to show examples that one man hath come into a general council and after that, the whole council had determined and agreed upon an Act or Article. That one man coming in afterward hath, by the word of God, declared so pithily that the Council had erred in discerning the said article. That he caused the whole council to alter and change their Act or Article before determined. Of these examples I am able to show two.

I can also show by the authority of St. Augustine, that when he disputed with an heretic, neither would have himself nor the heretic to lean to the determination of two former councils. Of the which, the one made for him and the other for the heretic that disputed against him. But said that he would have the Scriptures to be their judge, which were common and indifferent for them both and not proper to either of them.

I could show by the authority of a learned Lawyer Panormitanus, which said unto a simple layman that bringeth the Word of God with him, that there ought more credit to be given to the Word of God than to the whole council gathered together. Without the scriptures, these things well prove that I ought not to be denied to say my mind and to be heard against the whole Parliment, bringing the Word of God for me and the authority of the old church.

400 years after Christ, albeit, that every man in the Parliment had willingly and without respect of fear and favor, agreed thereto. (Which thing I doubted not a little of.) Especially seeing that the like had been permitted in the old church. Even in the general councils, yea, and that in one of the Chief Councils that ever was. Unto which neither any of our Acts of Parliment, for the most part, nor yet of the late general council of the Bishops of Rome, ought to be compared. For let Henry VIII call a parliment and begin to determine a thing, (quote I) and would have alleged the example of the Act making the (Queen a Bastard and of making himself supreme head), but could not, being interrupted of one Sir Anthony Brown, who mayGod forgive. Then will you (pointing to my Lord Chancellor) and you and you and sic de singulis (pointing to the rest of the Bishops), say, Amen. Yea and it, like your grace, it is mete (Meant?) that it be so enacted.

Ch: Here, my Lord Chancellor would suffer me to speak no more. He bade me sit down, mockingly saying that I was for to be instructed of them, and I would take upon me to be their instructor.

Ro: My Lord, I stand, and sit not: shall I not be suffered to speak for my life?
(Continued)

Ch: Shall we suffer you to tell a tale, and to prate? Quote he, and stood up, and began to deface me, after his old arrogant, proud fashion, marking that I was in a way to have touched them somewhat, which thing he would hinder, and dash me out of my tale and so he did, for I could never be suffered to come to my tale again, no not to one word of it. But he had much like communication with me as he had the day before, and, as is accustom able to him, taute for taute, and cheek for cheek. For in this case, being God’s cause, I told him he should not make me afraid to speak.

Ch: See what a spirit this fellow hath! said he, finding fault at my accustomed earnestness & hearty manner of speaking.

Ro: I have a true spirit, said I, agreeing and obeying to the word of God and would further have said that I was never the worse, but better, to be earnest in a true, just cause, and in my Master Christ's matters, but might not be heard. At that length he proceeded further to his Excommunication and Condemnation. After that I told him that his Church of Rome was the Church of Anti-Christ, meaning the false doctrine, and the tyrannical laws and maintenance thereof, and cruel persecution used by said Church. (of that which the Bishop of Wichester, and the rest of his fellow Bishops that are now in England, are the Chief members) Not all the men and women are in the Pope's Church.

When I was said to have denied the Sacrament, whereof he made his most reverent motion, more to maintain his Kingdom thereby than for the true reverence of Christ's institution. More for his own and his Popish generations sake than for Religion or God's sake. I told him after what order, for that manner of his speaking was not agreeing with my words, which are before recited in the conversation that we had on the 28th of January. Wherewith he was not contented, and asked the audience whether that I had not Simply denied the sacrament and they would have said and did, what he lusted, for the most of them were of his own servants
at that day, the 29th day of January.
I mean, at the last, I will never deny it, quote I, that I said that your doctrine of the sacrament is false, but yet I tell you after what order I said it.
To be short, he read my condemnation before me, particularly mentioning therein but two articles. That the Romish Catholic Church is the Church of Anti-Christ, and that I denied the reality of the Sacrament, & etc. He cursed me to be degraded, and condemned to be put into the hands of the lay, and gave me over unto the sheriffs hands (which were, much better than his) , and sent us to the Clink (jail) , there to remain to night. When it was dark, carried us with bills and weapons enough, and out of the Clink led us through the Bishop's house, and so through St. Mary Over The Way's church yard, and so into Southwark, and over the bridge on procession to Newgate through the city.


Ch: When he had read his condemnation, he declared that I was in the great curse, and what a vengeful, dangerous matter it were to eat or drink with us, or to give us anything; for all that so did, should be partakers of the same great curse.

Ro: Well, my Lord, quote I, here I stand before God, and you all this honorable audience and take him to witness, that I never wittingly or willingly taught any false doctrine. Therefor I have a good conscience before God and before all good men and am not afraid but that you and I shall come before a Judge which is righteous, before whom I shall be as good a man as you and where, nothing doubt, I shall be found a member of the True Catholic Church, everlastingly saved. As for your false Church, you need not excommunicate me there out. I have not been it these twenty years. The Lord be praised therefor! But now you have done it, you can, my Lord, I pray you grant me one thing yet.

Ch: What is it?

Ro: That my poor wife, being a stranger, may come and speak with me so long as I live: for she hath ten children that are hers and mine, and somewhat I would counsel her what were best to do for her.
(Continued)

Ch: No, she is not thy wife.

Ro: Yes, my Lord and hath been these eighteen years.

Ch: Should I grant her to be thy wife?

Ro: Choose, whether you will or not, she shall be so, nevertheless.

Ch: She shall not come at ye, quote he.

Ro: Then I have tried out all your charity, said I. You make yourselves highly displeased with the matrimony of Priests. But ye maintain their open whoredom, as in Wales, where every Priest has his Whore openly dwelling with him. Even as your Holy Father suffereth in all Dutchland, and in France, the Priest to do the like. Thereto he answered not, but looked as it were a squint at it. Thus departed I, and saw him last.

But now, dearly beloved, hear what I would have said further, and what I had devised the night before, partly, as the Lord knoweth, with sighing and tears, partly with prayer, and partly by imagining in my mind often what order I would speak, when I should come before the aforesaid Judges, the beginning you have heard before. Now hear how I was utterly purposed to have proceeded.

As in King Henry VIII's days, you in your Parliaments followed only his will and pleasure, even to grant the Queen Marie to be a Bastard, (see foot note-His own account p. 315), ( God it well knoweth, against your wills and as you well know, against the wills of the whole Realm, for the most part, and that of all states, rich and poor, special and impartial, gentle and ungentle,& etc.). Likewise, the taking away of the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and with other things not a few. Even so in King Edwards days did the most of the learned of the clergy (against their wills, as it does now appear) set their hands to the marriage of Priests, (as deacons and archdeacons, Doctors and Masters of colleges, to the number of 70 or thereabouts). The most part of the Bishops set their hands to the alteration of the service into English, and to the taking away of the positive laws, which before had prohibited the said marriage. This, I say, they did for the Duke of Somersett and others of the King's executors pleasure.
Likewise, when the Duke of Somersett was beheaded, and the Duke of Northumberland began to rule the roost. Look what he would desire, that he had especially in his last Parliment, what his will was to be enacted, that was enacted. In like manner, since the Queen Mary came to the Governance of the Realm, committing the same to the care of the Bishop of Wichester (and very few others, but he ruling the matter, as all England knoweth to be true), the consent of the whole Parliament followeth his head and his will. So that now (against their wills, without doubt, and against the wills of many thousands of true hearts of the Realm, as they of the Parliment house well know) they have condescended unto him.

What he cannot do in one Parliment, that he does in another, for he has had three, all under the title of the queen (or else he were shameless), in a year and a half. Now, I say, since he ruled the roost, tell me how many things they in their Parliaments have conceded unto against their wills, yea, and the hearts and wills of the whole Realm .

Let all England bear me witness, as that the queen should marry with a foreign Prince. That the service in English should be taken away, that the Bishop of Rome should have his old authority, & etc. I speak only of those examples which have been seen in our time, and which all England know to be true.

I will leave out many other old examples that might well be rehearsed. By all these, I say, (and many others who so read the Chronicles of England and the old Acts thereto applying or comparing the Acts made in any Kings days to the chronicles of this time). It may well be seen that our Parliaments are and have been so conducted, specially, for the most part, in the last 100 years. The will and pleasure of one, or of a very few of the heads, either of the Kings or of the counselors and the like is to be seen in the most of the general Councils of the latter times, that is to wit, that have been within these four or five hundred years.

Whereupon I might most justly conclude that none of these other Parliaments or Councils might or ought to hinder. But that I or any other man, bringing the word of God, and the consent of the old Catholic Church of the most pure time, that is 400 years after Christ, should and ought to have been heard, to write or speak even against the determination, consent, decree, act or article of any Parliment or general Council, if they in any point or points differ or disagree from Gods Holy Word, yea, although they had all, with their wills consented thereto.

I hold my peace, how much more it is lawful, when men be compelled to agree? But this act to make the Bishop of Rome Supreme head by the word of God, otherwise than as a minister; to bind and to loose in heaven and in earth. To have the exposition of the Scriptures in his power, and to be above them in authority; to allow what shall be Scriptures and what not, to make articles of our faith, to make laws unto which all men must obey, upon pain of damnation. To have authority above all other Bishops, yea, above Emperors and Kings,& etc., (for there is a whole sea of errors comprehended under and in these words, that the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church).

It is against the Scriptures, which assigns us Christ to be the head of the church, even here on earth. I speak De ecctia militate, of the war faring Church that in this world warreth against the Devil, the world, and the flesh, etc. But of the rotten head of Rome there is no mention made in them. Wherefore by the word of God, he hath no such authority.
(Continued)

Wherefor I may conclude that I or any other man, having the word of God on our side, may speak against such an Act, and ought to be heard, and the Parliaments to give place to the word of the ever living God, not God to the Act of Parliment. Of God's word there shall not one title pariah, but it shall all be fulfilled and performed that is therein contained, and unto it must all men, Kings, Queens and Emperors, Parliaments and general Councils obey and the word obeyeth no man.

It cannot be changed or altered, neither may we add or put any thing thereto, nor take no thing therefrom. But the Parliment or general Council may be altered, and changed, and a contrary thing determined, as also there be diverse and enough examples already shown. And with time and books I could show many more. Yea, I will put you a merry case, in the midst of my sorrow. I put the case that Henry VIII should rise again, and come to the next Parliment. Would he not then be King still, think you? Yes, verily, when he then should perceive that his Acts were changed. there would be no small hurly-burly. What would then the Bishop of Wichester say, and the other Rochette, with the whole swarm of Deans, Archdeacons, Prebendaries, and Dignitaries in the convocation house, yea, and all the Lords, knights, and Burgesses of the Parliment thereto? Verily, that they had offended the King. Mary would desire a pardon, and change the act again, or repeal the new found act, and away with the Pope again, etc.

And peradventure some that sit now very high should dance Truchemore, after the sound of the axe of the tower, so long till their blood were all spent, and that they could pant no more for the lack of breath, etc. Yea, sir, but Henry VIII cometh no more here. We are not afraid of him. Indeed it appeareth so, by the Acts that are past, and by your deeds now, for our Bishops are not afraid to say that we were in a schism and in an heresy, all this while since the abolishing of the Bishop of Rome Authority, and that is indeed to make Henry VIII and Edward VI schismatics and heretics. Albeit that they abstained from the plain speaking and saying so.

There are a great sort in England that are not so blind but that they can perceive this juggling right well. Oh, how well did Henry VIII bestow his Bishoprics upon such Prelates! What traitorous hearts bare they unto him in his lifetime! Let all man consider this. But now to the purpose. What if Henry VIII arise not to reign in England? Cannot God raise up another King of like zeal and power, yea, of a much better zeal than than ever he had? Yes, I dare say, he will grant it. Now, if that should come by the days of these Bishops and of this present clergy, would they not all kneel down on their merry bones, and obey to the putting away of the Bishop of Rome again, and turn about again as fast as they ever they did, and come to the cross again, and preach against his usurped power, & etc.? Who doubteth thereof? Turn, and turn, and turn again, is the very life and propriety of our Popish Prelates, and of the whole crown shaven clergy. Wherefore seeing this is true, why should the Parliment be of such force that men might not, having the word of God on their side, be heard, yea, rather be highly allowed to speak against it? This I must tell you. By the way, you make so many changes and turn so oft about therein, that at the length, I much fear, God will make a very strange turning among you. pray God it proves not so.
(Continued)

Ch: My Lord Chancellor told me that we Gospel Preachers marred the Realm.

Ro: Let all men be judges, that have a zeal to religion and truth, whether this turning about of the Papist have not brought the simple lay people, yea, and so many worldly wise men thereto, to this point, that they cannot tell who they should believe, or whereunto they should trust. Neither is it any marvel, for there is no man so blind but he seeth that if there be any law of man to force them, they will all turn from the Pope to the King, and from the King to the Pope again. From the Latin service to the English, and from the English to the Latin again. From whoredom and adultery to lawful marriage and from marriage to whoredom and adultery again. From mass to the communion, and from the communion to the mass again, & etc.

Yea, and if a King should now come, that would make another change, after the manner as the late innocent Edward did, and add the force of laws, which lacked in his days, they would turn again from the Pope's Supremacy to the King's, from the Latin service to the English, from the mass to the communion, & etc. Yea, and if there came in 20 years 10 Kings of divers religion, and made 10 changes in the 20 years, that is, every 2 years a change, adding, I say, force thereto, they would care for no God, but turn about with the Kings. Every King's God should be a true God, and his religion the true Religion. I mean, the living and reigning Kings should be set forth to the utmost, and his God and religion to be the true religion, and the dead King should have the false God and false religion. So that these Bishops and the clergy would live 20 years, and still say that they had the true God and true religion. Yet every two years preach a contrary religion. How can this be?

All the world seeth with what cruelty they deal. They will not take any order by disputation or conference, either by mouth or pen. They punish before and without law. They have imprisoned us now almost a year and a half, and, taken our living away the first day. Have kept us there so long till they could get a law to make us either to deny our doctrine (I call it ours because we were the ministers of it, for it is assuredly the doctrine of God taught by Christ, the Prophets, and Apostles). Or else to take our lives from us most cruelly and tyrannously and yet in their words pretend mercy and charity.

They are, verily, even the men that David pointeth out in the figure and pattern of Saul, Ps. 5:9-11. no est in are co veritas, car eo vanu est, sepulchru patens est gutter co, linguis suis dolose agebant, iudica illos deus. That is, there is no truth In their mouth. Their heart is vain or full of corruption or wickedness. That is, full of deceit and guile. Their throat is an open sepulcher, that is, a grave that, lying open, looketh for a corpse, to rot it and eat it up. Even so do our enemies, with their fair painted words and fine tales, go about to draw us unto them, and to make us forsake God and to fall from him. How say ye. They say, will you come into one church with us? So shall you receive mercy, & etc. Is not this to deal subtlety with their tongues? Are not such mens throats an open sepulcher? sed indica cos deus. But, Oh Lord, destroy them, judge and condemn them.

Thus much would I have said of the first point. That I being a private person, and having on my side, God's most Holy word, and the consent of the most old true and Catholic Church, as is afore said. That is to say, having on my side God himself and his Holy Catholic, elect and chosen Church, ought not to have been denied to write for that was my request. Knowing that they would, as they also did, dash and face me out with words, and with all crying against me. Not one soul so to have declared my innocence. Yea, if they had been or yet were men of God, they must most lovingly have embraced this before. But what they always have been, that they be and, I fear, will be continually. The Lord convert them, if it be his blessed will and if they be such men as may be partakers of the prayers of Gods elect and chosen. Amen.
(Continued)

I have also declared which Preachers mar them and that is most sure that we, preaching God's word sincerely and truly, as we have (the Lord be thanked therefor!) undoubtedly done. Yea, and that unfeignedly, heartily and earnestly, ought to be allowed for the savers and helpers of the realm. Our adversaries, doing the contrary, preaching false lies and mens traditions of ashes, candles, palms, water, bread, bells, herbs, dead Saints, rotten bones. The Pope's poison and destruction of souls. Rocking us all in blindness, with Latin abominable masses. Confessions and other service, ringing, singing, blessing, yea, and cursing and burning thereto, & etc. (for who can rake up all their trim toys, foul treachery, false feigned fantasies, loud lies, hypocrisy, and idolatry, etc.) These things will bring the realm to utter ruin, specially seeing it hath refused the warning of God through us his true preachers. This shall ye most assuredly find to be true, if ye repent not, and amend quickly. I can not at this time be any longer in this matter, although I right gladly would.

Ro: Wherefor I now proceed to the two things that I had to say, which was that my Lord Chancellor had the day before said his pleasure of them that ruled the rank while I was in prison, and also rejoiced as though God had made this alteration even for his sake, and his Catholic church, as he calleth it. To declare, as it were by miracle, that we were before in a schism and heresy, and the realm to an unity, and to a truth, and I cannot tell whereto.

Secondarily, my Lord, whereas you yesterday so highly dispraised the governance of them that ruled in innocent King Edward's days, it may please your Lordship to understand that we poor preachers, whom you so evil allow, did most boldly and plainly rebuke their evil governance in many things. Especially their covetousness, neglect, and small regard to live after the Gospel and also their negligence to cause others to live thereafter, with more things than I can now rehearse. This can all London testify with us. I would also have told him what I myself, for my poor part, did once at Paul's Cross, (see p. 93 in the book J. R.) concerning the abuses of abbeys and other church goods.

I was also, as is well known, feign to answer therefor before all the council, and many of my brethren did the like. So that we, for the rebuking of their faults, shall not answer before God, nor shall be blameworthy before men. Thereof let the gentlemen and courtiers themselves, and all the citizens of London, testify what we did. But, my Lord, you could not abide them for that which they did unto you, and for that they were of a contrary religion unto you. It is private hate (was I fully determined to have said) that makes you report so evil of your governance. You may now say what you lust of them, when they be partly dead and gone, and partly by you put out of office. But what shall be said of you, when you come down, down. You shall then hear. (I must say my conscience) I fear you have and will do, with your governance, bring England out of Gods blessing into a worn sun. I pray God you do not. I am an English man born, and God knoweth, do naturally wish well to my country. My Lord, you have often proved that the thing which I much dream of and fear, shall come to pass, doth indeed follow.

I pray God that I may fail of my guessing in this behalf. I most heartily desire it of
him. But, truly, that will not be with expelling the true words of God Out of the realm, and with shedding of innocent blood.

And as touching your rejoicing, as though God had set you aloft to punish us, by miracle, (Jeremiah 12:7) and to minister justice. In that we will not receive your holy faith and mercy, etc., and thereby to declare your church true and ours false. To that, I answer thus: God's works are wonderful, and are not to be comprehended and perceived of mans wisdom. Not by the wit of the most wise and prudent, yea, they are soon deceived, and do most easily judge amiss of Gods wonderful works, that are most wise. God hath made all the wisdom of the world foolishness, I Cor. 1, etc-dedit dilecta aiam sua in manib inimico ci, Jerem.12. He doth put his beloved and dear heart into the hands of his enemies thereof. This thing doeth God, which thing all wise men account to be the most foolish and unwise point that can be.

Will the wise of this world trust ye to put, their most dear friends and tenderly beloved children into their enemies hands, to kill them, slay, burn, & etc.? It is madness above all madness unto them, and yet doth God use this order? This is an high and a singular wisdom in his sight, which the world taketh to be most extreme madness. Can the world show a cause why he put the most Holy man, John the Baptist, into Herod's hands to be beheaded, and that in prison secretly, without open judgement, most tyrannically? Why he suffered the great multitude of innocent children to be most cruelly slain of Herod of Ascalon, which was father to him that killed John the Baptist? Why he suffered his beloved Apostle St. James to be beheaded of another Herod (as I suppose, but I can not well tell for lack of books)
Act: 12:1-2.

Which suffered his beloved seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be 400 years in thraldom and bondage under Pharaoh, and all the stock of Judah and Benjamin, his beloved children and Church, to come under the power, sword, and tyranny of Nebuchadnezzar, &etc.? No, verily, but his true Catholic Church knoweth divers causes hereof, which are now too long to rehearse. Which I would right gladly show, if I had books and time. But this I am right sure of, that it was not because the aforesaid Godly men were in heresies, and subject to false Gods, services and Idolatry, and their adversaries were men of God, and beloved of God, & etc.
The contrary was true: John the Baptist was beloved of God, and Herod hated, and so forth of the rest. John the Baptist, the innocent children, James, the children of Israel in Egypt and Babylon, were the Catholic members and people of God. Their adversaries, into whose hands they were put and delivered and that of God and by his good will and pleasure, were Idolatrous and the people of the Devil,& etc. But would be called the Chief members of God, and rejoiced that they worshiped the true God. That it was now declared by miracles that the Israelites had but a false God and false religion, seeing they were delivered into the Babylonians hands, & etc.

All the others, the Herod’s and Pharaohs I mean, plainly determined that, if the men which they killed and handled, had been God's people. God would never have suffered them to have come into their hands, but rather have done the contrary.

Who let John the Baptist be killed of Herod etc? Even the like is now to be seen in us,
and in our most cruel adversaries. Not therefor are they the Catholic Church,
because our merciftul God hath, at this present, given our lives into their hands. Neither are we therefor heretic because we suffer punishment at their hands, as the Lord Chancellor, by his rejoicing, seemeth to gather. The contrary is hereby to be gathered, that we be the members of the true Catholic Church (because we suffer for the same doctrine which John the Baptist, James, the Israelites, yea, Christ and his Apostles, suffered for, of which none taught of our adversaries doctrine. That the Rotten Anti-Christian head of Rome should be the head of the Catholic Church.

But have manifestly taught the contrary, specially Paul 2 Thess. 2:8-12, and Daniel in 11:36-40,which thing, if I might have life and books, I would so set forth, that all the world should see it as I did teach).And our adversaries, with their Anti-Christian head are the members of the Devil's Church, as they undoubtedly are. And in like case as the above mentioned holy men (though they in their days were counted to be heretics, seditious, and disturbers of the whole world. For unto John the Baptist it was said, (John 1:25), why for baptizest thou, if you be-not Elias nor the Prophet'& etc.? As who say, you have no such authority to begin a new ceremony in the Church. For we be in ordinary possession of the Church and of us, you have no such authority. We abide by our old Circumcision, etc.
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